Rick Warren’s Common Ground With The Iniquity of The Pharisees

Below is a transcript taken from Chris Rosebrough’s radio show podcast Fighting For The Faith Radio podcast which was originally broadcast on Tuesday August 27th 2013, which you can subscribe to on iTunes. I highly recommend you do this if you want to develop discernment. 

You can also watch the video of Rick Warren’s sermon – Employing Your Experiences – part 1 > http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/daily-hope/listen/employing-your-experiences-part-1-356986.html

Here is the video link for this transcript >  http://youtu.be/QMy5MsMlL78

[Segment: 00:56:45 – 01:33:21]

Chris Rosebrough, “Okay welcome back to Fighting for the Faith. This is hour number two and we are not doing a sermon review – a normal one. We have a purpose driven update instead. I want with what you just heard fresh in your mind to take a listen to a typical Rick Warren sermon and what he does with the scripture.

When you compare the two you will go, ‘Uh huh I get it.’ Alright now since we are doing a purpose driven update. It requires me to do this.

Purpose – John Tartaglia

Purpose.
It keeps you going strong
Like a car with a full
Tank of gas.

Everyone else has a purpose,

So what’s mine?

Oh look.

Here’s a penny.
It’s from the year I was born.

It’s a sign!

Ha! Ba ba ba ba doo doo doo doo doo.

I don’t know how I know,

But I’m gonna find my purpose.
I don’t know where I’m gonna look,
But I’m gonna find my purpose.

Gotta find out.

Don’t wanna wait.
Got to make sure that my life will be great.

Gotta find my purpose.
Before it’s too late.

Chris Rosebrough, “Yeah there we go. I have got to find my purpose before it is too late. Okay so Rick Warren has a new, it is not exactly new – but new this year radio programme and the name of the programme is Daily Hope With Rick Warren, it should be renamed Daily Bible Twisting with Rick Warren. That is what it should be named and what we are going to be listening to is a segment from a his presentation called shaped to make a difference Employing Your Experience.

So you know in the purpose driven theology, employing your experience is much important. The problem is that this entire teaching is based on nothing but twisting God’s Word and irrationally interpreting it, employing the third iniquity if you would of the Pharisees and how they mishandle God’s Word.

Remember they pay no attention to context. ‘You know so it says in scripture that The Torah is not in heaven, therefore we have the sole authority to interpret the scriptures right. It says incline not to the, incline to the majority, that means majority rules when it comes to us deciding what the scriptures means right and you go and look and you go look those those passages up in context and they are not saying any of the things the Pharisees say they were saying.

Well it is weird. Rick Warren employs the exact same irrational twisting of God’s Word to make it say things it doesn’t say. So here is Rick Warren explaining to us the importance of employing our experiences complete with biblical passages supposedly supporting this particular teaching of Rick Warren. Here we go….

Rick Warren, “You know I like chocolate chip cookies. In fact I like them a lot. I like them so much, I know how to make them. In fact I don’t even need a recipe. I have made them. I know to make chocolate chips and the amazing thing is I get in a little hurry sometimes and I want to eat the individual ingredients and they taste like pearls spit. Somehow though when you mix five bad things with one good thing and you stir them up together.

It is so good to eat half the dough before you make the cookie. How is that? Five bad things and one good equal a really good mixture and that is what God wants to do with your life. He wants to take bad, bad, bad, good and turn you into Mrs. Fields.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Okay so apparently God wants to take all these bad experiences, add one good ingredient and turn you into a chocolate chip cookie. That is kind of the metaphor. Remember the name of this particular sermon is at least on the radio programme Shaped to Make a Difference – Employing Your Experiences…..”

Rick Warren, “And he is a pro at it and today we are going to look at how he does it. God does not want you to waste your experiences. So how do I keep from wasting the experiences that I have had in my life up to this point…..”

Chris Rosebrough, “Now what does it mean to waste your experiences? Where in scripture is this important Christian doctrine about not wasting your experiences? I don’t even know what, how do you waste an experience? How do you capitalize on an experience so that you don’t waste it? I am kind of at a loss here.”

Rick Warren, “Three things. Number one, first you must embrace your experiences.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Okay so number one if you don’t want to waste your experiences you have got to embrace it first.”

Rick Warren, “You must embrace them….”

Chris Rosebrough, “I don’t know what that means?”

Rick Warren, “You must embrace the experiences in your life, the good ones – the bad ones. The shameful ones, the right ones, the wrong ones, the happy and the sad ones – all of them. You have got to stop running from your past, if God is going to use it for good in your life.”

Chris Rosebrough, “So God is going to use my past experiences for good, if I stop running from them. I don’t know what this means?”

Rick Warren, “Galatians 3 v 4 says this….”

Chris Rosebrough, “Now listen to what he does with this biblical text.

Galatians 3 v 4 I think is what he said. Let me back this up, just a smidge. Open your Bible. Let’s take a look at this together. Listen to what he says.”

Rick Warren, “Galatians 3 v 4 says this….

Galatians 3 v 4 (Easy to Read Version – ERV)

You have experienced many things. Were all those experiences wasted? I hope not

And as your pastor I say….”

Chris Rosebrough, “Okay woah, woah slow down there text.

Okay so Galatians 3 v 4……

Galatians 3 v 4 (Easy to Read Version – ERV)

4 You have experienced many things….”

What translation is he reading from? Okay let me read it to you from the ESV, which is a perfectly great translation and here is what it says.

Galatians 3 v 1-9 (ESV – English Standard Version)

1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?  Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith—just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?

Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

Now if you are not familiar with the epistle to the Galatians. This is a harshly, and I mean strongly harshly worded letter to the churches in Galatia because they were believing a false gospel. They were believing that they were saved in part by their keeping of The Torah. You know the Judaizers had come in after Paul left and told them, ‘Listen you are not saved. You are not really a Christian, unless you get circumcised.

Unless you follow the Jewish festivals and feasts and here Paul goes right back to salvation by grace alone through faith alone by Christ’s work alone and Galatians 3 is not at all about employing your experiences or not wasting your experiences. This is about whether or not they have received the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit by works of the law or whether they have received the Spirit by believing with faith the message that was preached to them.

So when we get to Galatians 3 v 4…..

Galatians 3 v 4 (Easy to Read Version – ERV)

Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?

That is from the ESV and I think it is the far superior of a translation to what is going on there in the Greek text. I don’t know what translation he is reading from. But let me read it from a different translation. Just to kind of make the point. The NIV says.

Galatians 3 v 4 (NIV – New International Version)

Have you suffered so much for nothing—if it really was for nothing?

Okay that is the NIV then – the 1984 edition. The old NASB from 1977 says this….

Galatians 3 v 4 (NASB – New American Standard Version)

Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?

You notice what is going on here? Let’s take a look at what the KJV says….

Galatians 3 v 4 (KJV – King James Version)

Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

Yeah weird so Galatians 3 has nothing to do with employing your experiences and embracing them. This is so Galatians has nothing to do with embracing your experiences at all. So what is Rick Warren doing? Well this is the third iniquity of the Pharisees. Irrationally mishandling the Word of God to make it say things that it doesn’t say at all. Let me back this up now and we will listen to it in context and listen to what Rick Warren does with this Galatians 3 passage.”

Rick Warren, “You must embrace the experiences in your life, the good ones – the bad ones. The shameful ones, the right ones, the wrong ones, the happy and sad ones – all of them. You have got to stop running from your past, if God is going to use it for good in your life.

Galatians 3 v 4 (ERV – Easy to Read Version)

You have experienced many things. Were all those experiences wasted? I hope they were not wasted!

And as your pastor I say to you I hope not too. Don’t run away from your past. The problem is because of pain many people deny their past….”

Chris Rosebrough, “You see what he did with Galatians 3 v 4? This is not an isolated incident with Rick Warren. This is exactly the stable of food that he lays out before people, calling this biblical preaching and teaching. He is not a safe teacher. In fact he is a liar. That is not what this text is teaching at all.

Galatians 3 has nothing to do with embracing your experiences and he goes and finds some weird off bizarre translation in order to find the word experience to plug it into his message and his doctrine and his theology.

In other words Rick Warren is teaching as doctrines the commands of men. Okay what is the command of the man Rick Warren? Rick Warren you have got to embrace your experiences. How does he come up with this man made doctrine? Well he twists the Word of God to make it say something it doesn’t say at all. That is how he came up with this. But here is a command from God. Embrace your experiences.

Where do we get that from? Well from some bizarre translation of Galatians 3 v 4, about did you experience these things for nothing, well I hope not. You know completely ripped from context, not paying attention to anything that it actually says. This is how Rick Warren operates and he will do it again and then when he is done doing that, then he is going to do it again. Listen in…..”

Rick Warren, “The problem is because of pain many people deny their past, ignore their past, discount their past, regret their past, resent the past, shoot they revise their past and rewrite their past and they make up little stories that aren’t really the way it was. Because they are happier with their story, than the pain of the past. God says if you are in denial, you can’t use it for good and I can’t….”

Chris Rosebrough, “Did you hear who he said says that? Listen again okay. Let me back this up. Listen to he says if you are in denial he can’t use your past. Listen to this….”

Rick Warren, “The problem is because of pain many people deny their past, ignore their past, discount their past, regret their past, resent the past, shoot they revise their past and rewrite their past and they make up little stories that aren’t really the way it was. Because they are happier with their story, than the pain of the past. God says if you are in denial, you can’t use it for good and I can’t use it for good in your life….”

Chris Rosebrough, “Where does God say if you are in denial about your past and don’t embrace your past experiences. God can’t use it for good. There isn’t a passage in scripture, where God says any of that? This is not what God’s Word says. Rick Warren is making stuff up and putting it in the mouth of God and doing so by twisting God’s Word. He is teaching as doctrines the commandments, [The Takkanot] of men….”

Rick Warren, “Would you write this on your outline? God can use every experience in my life for good. Every experience – the relational, the educational, the spiritual, the vocational, the painful, all of them – the ones you like and the ones didn’t like. He can use them all. But you have got to stop running from them. You have got to embrace your experiences…..”

Chris Rosebrough, “So first step. You have got to embrace your experiences. Nowhere in scripture are you commanded to embrace your experiences, especially Galatians 3 v 4…..”

Rick Warren, “And maybe your parents weren’t that great or maybe you weren’t that hot in school or maybe you weren’t the football captain or the prom queen. Well so what? They are your experiences. Own them and God will use them for good in your life. Now in order to use them, you have got to remember them.

Chris Rosebrough, “Okay so now we have got to remember our experiences. So command number one, embrace your experiences. Command number two remember your experiences and which passage from The Bible teaches this?”

Rick Warren, “Stop pushing them out of your mind. You have got to remember them and Jesus tells us this and in fact in The Old Testament tells it too in

Deuteronomy 11 v 2…..”

Chris Rosebrough, “Okay let’s take a look at Deuteronomy 11 v 2, before he ever gets there. Deuteronomy 11 v 2 and we will look at this in context is this passage saying make sure to remember your experiences. Okay let’s in fact, let’s go to the tail end of Deuteronomy 10, add a little context. Remember our three rules for sound biblical exegesis are context, context and context. So let’s go to Deuteronomy 10 v 12 and then we will keep reading into Deuteronomy 11 and then we will see what is going on in this passage. Okay….

Deuteronomy 10 v 12-22 (ESV – English Standard Version)

12 “And now, Israel, what does the Lord your God require of you, but to fear the Lord your God, to walk in all his ways, to love him, to serve the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul,13 and to keep the commandments and statutes of the Lord, which I am commanding you today for your good? 14 Behold, to the Lord your God belong heaven and the heaven of heavens, the earth with all that is in it. 15 Yet the Lord set his heart in love on your fathers and chose their offspring after them, you above all peoples, as you are this day. 16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no longer stubborn.

17 For the Lord your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God, who is not partial and takes no bribe. 18 He executes justice for the fatherless and the widow, and loves the sojourner, giving him food and clothing. 19 Love the sojourner, therefore, for you were sojourners in the land of Egypt. 20 You shall fear the Lord your God. You shall serve him and hold fast to him, and by his name you shall swear. 21 He is your praise. He is your God, who has done for you these great and terrifying things that your eyes have seen. 22 Your fathers went down to Egypt seventy persons, and now the Lord your God has made you as numerous as the stars of heaven.

Now pause there for a second, we are in the book of Deuteronomy. What is the context historically of what is going on? The children of Israel are just about ready to enter into the promised land, the forty years that they were punished for their unbelief. Remember the story the twelve spies who went to spy on Canaan and the then who gave a bad report and the children of Israel didn’t believe.

Well God punished them for 40 years, one year for each day that the spies were in Canaan right and all of the every adult above the age of 20. They died in the wilderness, during that 40 years and they were not going in. They did not go into the promised land. So now the children of Israel are literally on the border. Getting ready to cross the Jordan and Deuteronomy is a retelling, a second telling of the law and a remembering of all that God had done for them.

So Deuteronomy 11 v 1 then reads….

Deuteronomy 11 v 1-7 (ESV – English Standard Version)

1 “You shall therefore love the Lord your God and keep his charge, his statutes, his rules, and his commandments always. And consider today (since I am not speaking to your children who have not known or seen it), consider the discipline of the Lord your God, his greatness, his mighty hand and his outstretched arm, his signs and his deeds that he did in Egypt to Pharaoh the king of Egypt and to all his land, and what he did to the army of Egypt, to their horses and to their chariots, how he made the water of the Red Sea flow over them as they pursued after you, and how the Lord has destroyed them to this day,

and what he did to you in the wilderness, until you came to this place,and what he did to Dathan and Abiram the sons of Eliab, son of Reuben, how the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, with their households, their tents, and every living thing that followed them, in the midst of all Israel. For your eyes have seen all the great work of the Lord that he did.

Now notice this is a telling of Israel to recall all the wondrous things that He had done and this is not a command to remember your experiences. This is a command for them to recount salvation history. The things that were then recorded in the written Word of God. This is not a command saying, ‘Oh and here is the principle. Remember your experiences.’

No it is to recall the wonders of what God did in setting Israel free out of captivity and slavery and since we have been grafted into Israel, their history is our history and that is all type and shadow pointing to the reality and the reality is this – each and every one of us was born dead in trespasses in sins and enslavery to sin, death and the devil and Christ has sprung us free by His cross and He is bringing us into the promised kingdom of God. Okay that is what is going on here.

But there is no general command here. ‘Oh to remember your experiences.’ And to turn that into that is to twist God’s Word. So let me back this up and let’s see what Rick Warren does with Deuteronomy 11 v 2.”

Rick Warren, “And maybe your parents weren’t that great or maybe you weren’t that hot in school or maybe you weren’t the football captain or the prom queen. Well so what? They are your experiences. Own them and God will use them for good in your life. Now in order to use them, you have got to remember them.

Stop pushing them out of your mind. You have got to remember them and Jesus tells us this and in fact in The Old Testament tells it too in Deuteronomy 11 v 2. It says…

Deuteronomy 11 v 2 (GNT – Good News Translation)

Remember today what you have learned about the Lord through your experiences with him.

Chris Rosebrough, “What translation says that? Deuteronomy 11 v 2 says…..

Deuteronomy 11 v 2 (ESV – English Standard Version)

And consider today (since I am not speaking to your children who have not known or seen it), consider the discipline of the Lord your God, his greatness, his mighty hand and his outstretched arm,

That is actually a faithful rendering of what the Hebrew says there. Again let me read from the NIV Deuteronomy 11 v 2 says…..

Deuteronomy 11 v 2 (NIV – New International Version)

Remember today that your children were not the ones who saw and experienced the discipline of the Lord your God: his majesty, his mighty hand, his outstretched arm;

So what Rick Warren is saying here, this is not what this text says and it is not teaching what Rick Warren says it is teaching. Rick Warren is engaging in the third iniquity of the Pharisees. Let me back this up so that you can hear it again. Again this is not some isolated incident. This is Sunday after Sunday after Sunday, what Rick Warren does to the scriptures…..”

Rick Warren, “And maybe your parents weren’t that great or maybe you weren’t that hot in school or maybe you weren’t the football captain or the prom queen. Well so what? They are your experiences. Own them and God will use them for good in your life. Now in order to use them, you have got to remember them.

Stop pushing them out of your mind. You have got to remember them and Jesus tells us this and in fact in The Old Testament tells it too in Deuteronomy 11 v 2. It says…

Deuteronomy 11 v 2 (GNT – Good News Translation)

Remember today what you have learned about the Lord through your experiences with him.

Now it says remember what you have learned. It is saying the important thing is to remember the lessons. Remember the lessons. Now how do you do that? Well the best way to remember the lessons of your life, the experiences is to keep a journal….”

Chris Rosebrough, “Deuteronomy 11 is not telling us to keep a journal. What is he doing to God’s Word? What is he teaching these people?”

Rick Warren, “Now I am not talking about a diary, a diary is a list of what you did. Today I went to the store and brought milk, whoopi dido. But you don’t necessarily write in it every day. It is just every time you have important lesson. You write that one down, because you don’t want to forget it and go, ‘Oh boy that was painful. I had to learn that one the hard way. I don’t want to forget that and you write down the lesson.’ He says….

              Deuteronomy 11 v 2

Remember what you have learned about Me

And you want to keep a journal. This is one of my journals. I have been keeping a journal, off and on now for well since I was in college….”

Chris Rosebrough, “And now notice because number one you must embrace your experiences and number two you must remember your experiences. The implication is if you are not keeping a journal of your experiences, because according to Rick Warren Deuteronomy 11 v 2 says you have got to remember these things and you are not journaling. You are probably sinning and not doing what God has commanded you to do. Yeah that is exactly the implication of what is going on here….”

Rick Warren, “And I don’t write in it every day or even every week. It is just when I get a lesson, I don’t want to forget that one and I hear something. I learn something, I write it down and then I go back and reread it. Now why do you want to keep a journal on your experiences and lessons you learned from them in life?

Because hindsight is always twenty twenty, you understand your life looking back – not looking forward. Isn’t that true? It makes a whole lot more sense, looking backwards. In fact Jesus said it. Notice this next verse.

John 13 v 7 (NIV – New International Version)

7 Jesus replied,‘You do not realize now what I am doing. But later you will understand.”

Chris Rosebrough, “So when Jesus said, ‘You do not realize now what I am doing. But later you will understand. He was teaching us to remember our experiences. Is this what The Bible teaches? That verse that he is referencing is The Gospel of John 13 v 7. Let’s take a look at the context here and see if here in John 13. Jesus is telling us the importance of remembering our experiences.

John 13 v 1-10 (NIV – New International Version)

1 It was just before the Passover Festival. Jesus knew that the hour had come for him to leave this world and go to the Father. Having loved his own who were in the world, he loved them to the end.

The evening meal was in progress, and the devil had already prompted Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, to betray Jesus. Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power, and that he had come from God and was returning to God; so he got up from the meal, took off his outer clothing, and wrapped a towel around his waist. After that, he poured water into a basin and began to wash his disciples’ feet, drying them with the towel that was wrapped around him.

He came to Simon Peter, who said to him, “Lord, are you going to wash my feet?”

Jesus replied, “You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand.” “No,” said Peter, “you shall never wash my feet.” Jesus answered, “Unless I wash you, you have no part with me.” “Then, Lord,” Simon Peter replied, “not just my feet but my hands and my head as well!” 10 Jesus answered, “Those who have had a bath need only to wash their feet; their whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you.”

So there we go…..

John 13 v 7 (NIV – New International Version)

Jesus replied, “You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand.”

Is not absolutely not a passage that is teaching us to remember our experiences. Rick Warren again is twisting God’s Word. This is three passages now that he has twisted. Galatians 3 v 4; Deuteronomy 11 v 2; and now John 13 v 7. Let me back this up so that you can hear what is going on here. Again this is the iniquity of the Pharisees the third one….”

Rick Warren, “Now why do you want to keep a journal on your experiences and lessons you learned from them in life?

Because hindsight is always twenty twenty, you understand your life looking back – not looking forward. Isn’t that true? It makes a whole lot more sense, looking backwards. In fact Jesus said it. Notice this next verse.

John 13 v 7 (NIV – New International Version)

7 Jesus replied,‘You do not realize now what I am doing. But later you will understand.”

You almost never understand what God is doing in your life in the present. It is only looking back you go, ‘Oh now I see it. Now I see what God was doing. He was doing this. I didn’t see it at the time….’

Chris Rosebrough, “This passage isn’t about us remembering our experiences….”

Rick Warren, “You almost never understand what God is doing in your life in the present. It is only looking back you go, ‘Oh now I see it. Now I see what God was doing. He was doing this. I didn’t see it at the time. But I see it now.

Joseph was a man who in The Bible everything in his life went wrong for 40 years. It was downhill. Nothing went right. Including being thrown in jail for rape that he did not even do. He had run from the woman and she falsely accused him.

Everything went wrong in this poor guy’s life for the first 40 years and yet later looking back when God had done a series of amazing things and raised him to second in command in Egypt and during the famine he saved Israel and Egypt from starving to death and when he was confronted with the brothers who traded him into slavery years ago and told their dad, ‘You know he just died sorry.’ He said this next verse.

Genesis 50 v 20

20 You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good….

Chris Rosebrough, “Yeah that is what the passage says, but that passage again just like all the others isn’t teaching us the importance of remembering our experiences….”

Rick Warren, “Now there are things in your life, where people intended to hurt you and they meant it. They meant to hurt you and I am sorry and they intended it for bad. But God is greater than your problem and your pain and His purpose is far bigger than either of those and He means it for good. So first you have to embrace your experiences….”

Chris Rosebrough, “So first you have got to embrace your experiences and none of the passages he quoted say that….”

Rick Warren, “Stop running from them. Number two, first you embrace the experiences. Second you extract the lessons….”

Chris Rosebrough, “Remember and extract the lessons and none of the passages that he cited say that.”

Rick Warren, “You pull the lessons out of the experience you have had, an unexamined experience is worthless. There are people who are 50 years old. They haven’t lived 50 years. They have lived 1 year 50 times and it is still making the same mistakes, because they never stop and extract the lessons from what happened in this last year and how can I do it differently based on what I did this last year….”

Chris Rosebrough, “So kind of if you don’t do this then you are going to be living groundhog day, over and over again.”

Rick Warren, “And they never pull it out. 2 Corinthians 13 v 5 says this. I love this in The Amplified Version.

2 Corinthians 13 v 5 (AB – Amplified Bible)

Examine and test and evaluate your own selves to see whether you are holding to your faith

In other words you have got to extract the lessons…..”

Chris Rosebrough, “Yeah Rick Warren here is pulling a fast one and what I mean by that is 2 Corinthians 13 v 5, it doesn’t matter what translation you read whether it is the ESV, the NIV, the NASB, the KJV, or whatever alphabet soup you maybe studying from. It doesn’t matter the text itself does not say anything about remembering your experiences and extracting the lessons from it. He is completely twisting this passage. Let me just read it simply.

2 Corinthians 13 v 5 (ESV – English Standard Version)

Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith.

In the faith, it doesn’t say examine your life experiences and extract the lessons from them. It says….

2 Corinthians 13 v 5 (ESV – English Standard Version)

Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith.

The fact that Rick Warren is quoting the Amplified here, how many different translations has he used so far? I think four different verses, four different translations and this is what the text says.

2 Corinthians 13 v 5 (ESV – English Standard Version)

Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!

This passage has nothing to do with life experiences and what you should or shouldn’t be doing with them. Let me back this up just a smidge and listen to what Rick Warren does to this text.

Rick Warren, “You pull the lessons out of the experience you have had, an unexamined experience is worthless. There are people who are 50 years old. They haven’t lived 50 years. They have lived 1 year 50 times and it is still making the same mistakes, because they never stop and extract the lessons from what happened in this last year and how can I do it differently based on what I did this last year and they never pull it out. 2 Corinthians 13 v 5 says this. I love this in The Amplified Version.

2 Corinthians 13 v 5 (AB – Amplified Bible)

Examine and test and evaluate your own selves to see whether you are holding to your faith

In other words you have got to extract the lessons. Do you not realise by an ever increasing experience that Jesus Christ is in you…..”

Chris Rosebrough, “What is he talking about?

2 Corinthians 13 v 5 (ESV – English Standard Version)

Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!

Rick Warren what was he doing looking for the word experience so he can plug it in here and not pay attention to anything at all, what God’s Word really says. He is basically manipulating God’s Word to make it appear that it is teaching these things and it is not. These are not doctrines of God. These are the doctrines of the man Rick Warren and his clever Bible twisting and in such a postmodern way….”

Rick Warren, “Haven’t you figured out by now, you are never alone. That God is with you all the time. That no matter, when you thought you were your most lonely – He was right there with you. Have you not figured out from your experiences yet….”

Chris Rosebrough, “This text doesn’t say any of that….”

Rick Warren, “That Jesus is with you and in you. If you have invited Him into your life. If you haven’t you are not keeping a record of where your life is headed.”

Chris Rosebrough, “2 Corinthians 13 v 5 has nothing to do with keeping a record of where you are headed in your life or anything of the sort. I think I have made the point. You get what I am getting at here right? This is exactly what Rick Warren does Sunday after Sunday.

This is exactly what he did when he wrote the so called Purpose Driven Life. He took God’s Word and twisted it into a pretzel. Third iniquity of the Pharisees style. He is teaching as doctrines the commands of the man Rick Warren, not what God’s Word really says and there are tens if not hundreds of thousands of people who tune into to hear Rick Warren preaching and teaching and when he is doing this are they rightly understanding what God has revealed in His Word? No, are they being taught the truth? No they are being taught lies. Are they being taught the doctrines of God?

No they are being taught the doctrines of men under the pretence that is the doctrines of God, based on completely ripping texts out of context and irrationally interpreting them to say things that they don’t say at all. This is exactly why Rick Warren is a dangerous man. Because Jesus Himself said that Satan is the one who is a liar and when he lies he speaks his native language.

When a pastor gets up and without any pangs of conscience, you know can just get up there and just start twisting God’s Word like this and not actually feel like he is doing anything wrong and can lie about God and His Word so fluently, what he is proving is that he is not really a son of God.

But that he is like his father the devil and he is a liar. This is why Rick Warren is so dangerous and the whole purpose driven movement that he is the kingpin of, he is the mafia don of – well they take after him. Which means they are not really teaching the truth. They are not really proclaiming Christ. They are not really teaching sound doctrine. They are leading people astray and sending them to hell and Christ speaks ever so vocally against this exact thing in Mark 7.

So what do you think? I would love to get your feedback. If you would like to email me regarding anything you have heard on this edition or any previous editions of Fighting for the Faith. You can do so my email address is talkback@fightingforthefaith.com or you can subscribe on Facebook – facebook.com/piratechristian or you can follow me on Twitter. My name there is @piratechristian.

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Fighting for the Faith With Chris Rosebrough – Joyce Meyer Waxes Word of Faith – part 2

Below is a transcript taken from Chris Rosebrough’s radio show podcast Fighting For The Faith Radio podcast which was originally broadcast on Tuesday July 16th 2013, which you can subscribe to on iTunes. I highly recommend you do this if you want to develop discernment. 

You can also watch the video of Joyce Meyer’s sermon – Your Mouth and God’s Power > http://youtu.be/AdpJzngXKQg 

Here is the video link for this transcript > http://youtu.be/CSVbb3iqM6A

[First segment – 00:22:54 – 00:23:41]

Chris Rosebrough, “But what we are going to do right now. We are going to pause. We are going to take our first break in just a minute and when we come back we are going to do part 2 of what we started yesterday with Joyce Meyer and yesterday’s programme I named the segment Joyce Meyer Waxes Word of Faith, something like that. You have heard the phrase waxes eloquent that is you know that was the idea behind the…although the title itself is a little bit weird. You read it and go huh what? Yeah afterwards I thought maybe I should have named it something different but too late now. That is what it is called.

So we are going to be doing Joyce Meyer Waxes Word of Faith part 2 today. We are going to back the tape up just a little bit, continue where left off with her false teaching.

[Second segment – 00:32:39 – 01:05:00]

Alright we are back. Warning all false doctrine is dangerous. But some doctrines damn, that is what scripture teaches. You teach a different gospel and a different god you are outside of Christianity period.

Alright let’s move on. We have a Joyce Meyer update and I received an email today from a listener who suggested that I change up my music when I do anything really to the Word of Faith heresy and after listening to his suggestion, I am going to go with his suggestion. So even though we are doing a Joyce Meyer update I would like to introduce to our new kind of over the top if you would Word of Faith heresy music update. This is Jonny Mercer – Accentuate The Positive. Here we go….

Jonny Mercer – Accentuate The Positive

You have got to accentuate the positive
Eliminate the negative
And latch on to the affirmative
Don’t mess with Mister In-Between

You have got to spread joy up to the maximum
Bring gloom down to the minimum
Have faith or pandemonium’s
Liable to walk upon the scene

To illustrate my last remark
Jonah in the whale, Noah in the ark
What did they do just when everything looked so dark?

(Man, they said “We had better accentuate the positive”)
(“Eliminate the negative”)
(“And latch on to the affirmative”)
Don’t mess with Mister In-Between

Yeah that is Jonny Mercer’s Accentuate the Positive. I think like I said we are going to have to be using that for future instalments whenever we do a Word of Faith heresy update.

Now yesterday we were we started part 1 of Joyce Meyer Waxes Word of Faith is what I called it. Part 1 of that was yesterday. We are going to do Part 2 today. But in order to do it right.

What I need to do is actually back the audio up just a smidge so that you can hear the context of what it is that Joyce is saying here and so what I am going to do is I am going to actually back up the audio just a smidge and the teaching that she is doing by the way the name of it from her television programme is Your Mouth and God’s Power and so I am going to back up just a smidge so that we can get the context of what it is that she was saying.

So you will hear roughly about a minute of what we were listening to yesterday. Joyce Meyer as she is you know trying to tell us from The Gospel of Luke 1 that the reason why the angel had to shut up the mouth of Zachariah was so that his negative words wouldn’t mess up the mission that he was sent on. Yeah listen in again with this horrific twisting of God’s Word from The Gospel of Luke 1 and we will just keep going through as we do today’s instalment of Joyce Meyer Waxes Word of Faith. Here we go…..

Joyce Meyer, “Zachariah said to the angel v18….

Luke 1 v 18 (AB – Amplified Bible)

18 And Zachariah said to the angel, By what shall I know and be sure of this?

Prove it to me God.

Luke 1 v 18 (AB – Amplified Bible)

18 For I am an old man, and my wife is well advanced in years.

So here he has been praying for a child. But he already thinks he is too old to have one. He thinks his wife is too old. So look what happens?

Luke 1 v 19-20 (AB – Amplified Bible)

19 And the angel replied to him, I am Gabriel. I stand in the [very] presence of God, and I have been sent to talk to you and to bring you this good news. 20 Now behold, you will be and will continue to be silent and not able to speak till the day when these things take place, because you have not believed what I told you; but my words are of a kind which will be fulfilled in the appointed and proper time.

So God supernaturally shut Zachariah’s mouth and I wouldn’t mind to have a little of that sometime myself….”

Chris Rosebrough, “You could just do it on your own. I would really appreciate it because you are twisting God’s Word here….”

Joyce Meyer, “So God supernaturally shut Zachariah’s mouth and I wouldn’t mind to have a little of that sometime myself amen and He had to do it in order for His plan to come to pass in his life.

The birth of this child was so important as a forerunner to the Messiah and he could see, the angel could see from Zachariah’s initial response that his first words that there was not much chance of that man verbally cooperating with the plan of God and so God had to shut his mouth….”

Chris Rosebrough, “Now this is called eisegesis. Okay now remember we are dealing with a historical narrative. Now the narrative says, ‘Because you did not believe therefore you will not be able to speak.’ But what Joyce Meyer is doing here is she is engaging in eisegesis.

Now if you don’t know what that is two Greek words that you should understand ex ἐκ, ἐξ (Strong’s Concordance 1537) means out or out of eis εἰς (Strong’s Concordance 1519) means into. So when we talk about exegesis we are talking about reading out what is in scripture, which is the right way to do it. Eisegesis is reading into the biblical text what isn’t there. So what she just did is engaged in eisegesis. Reading in the Word of Faith heresy into this text from Luke 1, it is not there.

Nowhere does it say, ‘The angel knew well I have got to shut this guy up or he is going to you know, because his negative words are going to end up destroying the mission of the forerunner of the Messiah. No the text itself is clear. Because you didn’t believe, you could almost say it was a punishment of what was you know for not believing the words of the angel Gabriel. That is what the text says. If you were to engage in exegesis you could not come up with this quote interpretation that she has come up with because her interpretation is based upon her inserting into this text stuff that isn’t there.”

Joyce Meyer, “And I just wonder how many of us mess up the plan of God for our life. Come on now. I just wonder how many wonderful things God has had planned and how many things He has planned now that if you were not at this conference you would surely mess up by saying things that you shouldn’t say.

Chris Rosebrough, “So you can mess up the plan of God for your life with your words and that see this is why the angel had to shut up Zachariah according to Joyce Meyer, but not according to the biblical text.”

Joyce Meyer, “But thank God because you are here this weekend God is not going to have to supernaturally shut your mouth. You are going to learn. Is anybody with me tonight? How many of you see that? Well I guess I just better shut your mouth right now or we are never going to get this done.

Our words are so important. Everything in The Bible is important but there are some things that stand out to me. The power of our thoughts are extremely important because our thoughts become words and of all the teaching that we put on television the three areas that people respond to the most are the mouth, the mind, and emotions. I think we all know that those are areas that tend give us a lot of trouble. The mind is the battlefield. Your thoughts are where Satan attacks you.

The Bible says that out of your heart, what is in your heart, what is in your mind, comes out of your mouth. So naturally Satan wants to put wrong thoughts in your mind hoping that you will speak wrong things out of your mouth. I was thinking even just about exhortation. I am going to talk some of this weekend about what a powerful ministry it is just to encourage people and how desperately that is so much more needed today and you know when people see me out and about I frequently get compliments.

But I was thinking literally almost every person who comes up to me to give me a compliment starts this way, ‘I know you probably hear this all the time, but….,’ and I was thinking today you know what I believe that even that is a clear example that here is a person God puts it in their heart to encourage and the enemy right away puts a thought in their mind, ‘Ah she hears that stuff all the time. She won’t hear what you have to say.’ We have to be so careful that we don’t let the devil talk us out of doing what God wants us to do in our lives. Pay attention to what you are thinking and pay attention to what you are saying.

Luke 10 v 19 (AB – Amplified Bible)

19 Behold! I have given you authority and power….”

Chris Rosebrough, “Okay now this is a tricky passage to get what is going on here. In fact I had to consult some very good commentaries in order to properly understand this particular text. But notice where she is starting in the story, this should clue you in that she is not engaging in biblical exegesis. What she is engaging in is what is called proof texting. Okay and so the idea is this. Proof texting is when you begin with your own idea and then you go hunting in scripture to find stuff that supports your idea.

Okay now proof texting is not, it is not you are not guilty of it if you sit there and say, ‘Okay the doctrine of the Trinity which scripture teaches that there is only one God and that God exists in three persons and we are going to show you this by basically going to the texts that talk about hey look the Father is called God. Here is the biblical text that says the Father is called God. Here is another text that says the Son Jesus Christ is called God and here is another text in The Book of Acts where the Holy Spirit is called God and yet scripture is clear from these passages and Isaiah and from Deuteronomy 6 v 4 that there is only one God.

And so the idea here is that when we take up the full sum of all of these biblical texts where it says, makes it clear there is only one God and yet there are three persons Father, Son, and Holy Spirit who are called God and they communicate to each other. For instance Jesus prays to the Father and the Father His voice is heard when Jesus is baptized and then the Holy Spirit descends like a dove and then Jesus says when he is going to return to the Father. So He is not the Father. He is going to return to the Father and when He returns to the Father, they are going to send the Holy Spirit.

So when we go through the biblical passages and you take up the full you know scope and warp and woof if you would kind of a biblical phrase there of what the scripture teaches about the one God then what happens is that you see that there is one God and yet there are three persons who make up the one God and there are not three gods but one.

This is what The Bible teaches and so when you pull up all of these passages to show what The Bible teaches regarding the one God you are not actually engaging in proof texting. What you are doing is you are trying to sum up the basic you know overall look at what The Bible teaches, what God has revealed about Himself using all of these passages.

So a lot of times when you are teaching sound doctrine somebody will turn around and accuse you of proof texting, ‘Oh you are just proof texting.’ No proof texting, the first move of proof texting begins with your own doctrine, with your own thoughts, with your speculations, with your ideas and then you go hunting for passages that support that.

Sound biblical doctrine can be done by looking at different passages and even out of context if you would. Especially since the ideas when you put them back into context, it is not going to change their meaning. But sound biblical doctrine is when you gather up collectively what The Bible says regarding a particular topic and then you exegete out what it is actually saying. You are not beginning with an idea. What you are instead doing is you are beginning with scripture and letting scripture form your definitions.

Now because the church has created definitions over its history you know hammered out a very good definition of the doctrine of the Trinity. You can begin with the churches definitions and the churches confessions because those were done and forged and created via exegesis, not eisegesis and not proof texting. Does that make sense?

So the idea here is that for instance you know I would point to something like The Nicene Creed. The reason why The Nicene Creed is true is because it says the same thing as scripture. Okay it is a summary of scripture. So the reason it is true is because it says the same thing. The Augsburg Confession which is a primary confession of the Lutheran faith. It is true because it says the same thing as scripture.

So these little confessional statements that you know that we have these confessions, they are true because they say the same thing as scripture. Now if they don’t say the same thing as scripture in those areas where they don’t say the same thing, they are not true. Okay does that make sense or they are not in accord with scripture. But if you are confession doesn’t say the same thing as scripture, your confession has to be reworked. You know so that is something to keep in mind.

But the reason why The Nicene Creed is true, the reason why The Augsburg confession is true, why the apology of the Augsburg Confession is true, why Smalcald articles are true, why the Athanasian Creed is true is because those creeds, those confessions say the same thing as scripture and the idea then is you can go into the biblical text and you can formulate those exact confessional statements. Those exact sentences by exegeting properly exegeting the biblical passages that talk to that topic.

Okay but what Joyce Meyer is engaging in here is proof texting and here she is you know, she is not going to tell the story that is in Luke 10. Instead she is going to begin at a weird place v19.

Now if you are familiar with The Gospel of Luke there is a little vineyard stories you know throughout The Gospel of Luke and let me read the story to you from Luke 10 so that you understand what is going on in this passage and then you will get what this passage is saying when you look at it in context. The context will actually flesh this out. So Luke 10 v 1. Here is what it says…..

Luke 10 v 1-7 (ESV – English Standard Version)

1 After this the Lord appointed seventy-two others and sent them on ahead of him, two by two, into every town and place where he himself was about to go. And he said to them, “The harvest is plentiful, but the labourers are few. Therefore pray earnestly to the Lord of the harvest to send out labourers into his harvest. Go your way; behold, I am sending you out as lambs in the midst of wolves.

Carry no moneybag, no knapsack, no sandals, and greet no one on the road. Whatever house you enter, first say, ‘Peace be to this house!’ And if a son of peace is there, your peace will rest upon him. But if not, it will return to you. And remain in the same house, eating and drinking what they provide, for the labourer deserves his wages.

Now it is important to note that later after Jesus ascension, not ascension, Jesus resurrection. He says to His disciples, ‘This time take a money bag with you. Take sandals with you, a spare cloak and a sword even!’ You know but in this particular training mission if you would that is kind of what the sending out of the seventy two is about. He is training them on how to do evangelism. For this one….

Luke 10 v 4-12 (ESV – English Standard Version)

Carry no moneybag, no knapsack, no sandals [no sword, you don’t need any of that stuff], and greet no one on the road. Whatever house you enter, first say, ‘Peace be to this house!’ And if a son of peace is there, your peace will rest upon him. But if not, it will return to you. And remain in the same house, eating and drinking what they provide, for the labourer deserves his wages. Do not go from house to house.

Whenever you enter a town and they receive you, eat what is set before you. Heal the sick in it and say to them, ‘The kingdom of God has come near to you.’ 10 But whenever you enter a town and they do not receive you, go into its streets and say, 11 ‘Even the dust of your town that clings to our feet we wipe off against you. Nevertheless know this, that the kingdom of God has come near.’ 12 I tell you, it will be more bearable on that day for Sodom than for that town.

13 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. 14 But it will be more bearable in the judgment for Tyre and Sidon than for you. 15 And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You shall be brought down to Hades.16 “The one who hears you hears me, and the one who rejects you rejects me, and the one who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

So here is the idea here, kind of an idea regarding sending in those days. Okay so this is an apostolic mission if you would. Jesus is sending ἀποστέλλω apostelló He is apostelló-ing. That is the Greek word here. Seventy two guys and they are going with His authority, with His message. They are heralds of the things He wants to say and because they are saying what they are, they are being told what to say the one who hears them, hears Jesus. Because they are giving the message that Jesus wants to have proclaimed and preached. Right same thing should be happening in your church by the way.

No pastor has the authority to bring his own message in a Christian church that belongs to Jesus Christ. So that way if he is saying the truth of what scripture says. The one who hears your pastor hears Jesus. That is what is kind of the idea there. But Luke 10 v 17 then goes on to say….

Luke 10 v 17 (NKJV – New King James Version)

17 Then the seventy returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.” 18 And He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19 Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you. 20 Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but ratherrejoice because your names are written in heaven.”

So what happens is the seventy two return and the thing they are really jazzed about, not the message they were preaching, not that people were brought to repentance. That is the thing they should have been jazzed about. They were, ‘Wow Jesus even the demons are obeying us.’ This is amazing stuff and then Jesus gently corrects them. Okay Jesus corrects them and refocuses them and He says to them….

Luke 10 v 18 (ESV – English Standard Version)

18 And He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19 Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you. 20 Nevertheless do not rejoice in this [this is not what you should be rejoicing about], that the spirits are subject to you, but ratherrejoice because your names are written in heaven.”

Okay now in v19 where it says…..

Luke 10 v 19 (ESV – English Standard Version)

19I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy and nothing shall hurt you.

Is that a blanket promise then that nothing can hurt a Christian? Answer no here is what Lenski the biblical commentator says regarding this he says, ‘But this does not mean that Jesus lifts his messengers above all the destructive forces of nature. Nor does it mean that they may in a foolhardy way disregard all natural dangers, which would be nothing but playing into Satan’s hands by tempting God. Nor does this symbolism lift the disciples above all persecution that is stimulated by Satan and above a possible martyr’s death, all the passages that speak of persecution declare the contrary.

But the words of Jesus mean that Satan cannot inflict personal persecution and death at will. Only when Jesus Himself wants Him to suffer and to die in the interests of His kingdom do such things come upon us. So then we accept them as being sent by Jesus and even then we trample on all of Satan’s power as did all of the martyrs who died and triumphed and by so dying defeated Satan.

So here is the idea you misunderstand this text and you twist it when you say that, ‘Oh well Jesus says all authority has been given and nothing shall hurt you.’ That is not a blanket promise that nothing ever shall hurt Christians. Because what happened to the apostle Peter He was crucified upside down. What happened to the apostle Paul? He was beheaded. He was stoned. He suffered a martyr’s death. He was nearly martyred on several different occasions.

So this is not some blanket promise that nothing shall hurt you and anyone who uses it that way is not paying attention to what is going on in this text and this was said by Jesus to correct the seventy two for their wrong focus and their wrong rejoicing and to get them to rejoice and to be happy and focused on the right thing. So let’s see what Joyce Meyer now does with Luke 10 v 19. Again it is suspicious that she starts at v19. Let’s see what she does with it….”

Joyce Meyer, “Not I will, I might, could be, hope so, maybe. I have given you every one of you that is a child of God, every person here watching by TV, listening in some way, if you are a child of God. You have authority and power. It has been given to you by God.”

Luke 10 v 19 (AB – Amplified Bible)

19 Behold! I have given you authority and power to trample upon serpents and scorpions, and [physical and mental strength and ability] over all the power that the enemy [possesses]; and nothing shall in any way harm you.

Now I am sure some people think, ‘Well if I have got so much power, then why is my life such a mess? Because you can kill we power of God in your life. You can press it down, hinder it, keep it from flowing by speaking things that are not in agreement with God’s plan and will for your life.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Wow so you have the power to literally cut off the power of God with your words. Now there is not a single verse in scripture that says that. So how is she doing this? Well by her proof texting. Pulling verses out of context and making them say things that they don’t. By the way Proverbs 18 v 21 does not say that you can stop the power of God in your life with your words. It doesn’t say that. This is absolutely blasphemous. Who is the sovereign here? Apparently you are or your words are. Your words are more sovereign than God Himself. Weird huh?”

Joyce Meyer, “God has equipped us. Now listen to me God has equipped us on the inside in our spirit with every single thing that we need to live a victorious life. Everything when you are born again the seed of God comes to live in you. That means that you are pregnant with everything that God is.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Really what passage of scripture says that I am pregnant with everything that God is? As a Christian I have been given the guarantee, the inheritance, the down, the deposit guaranteeing the inheritance. That is the Holy Spirit. So I have the Holy Spirit dwelling within me. But where does it say that I am pregnant with everything that God is? There isn’t a single passage of scripture that says this.”

Joyce Meyer, “In your womb….”

Chris Rosebrough, “I don’t have a womb….”

Joyce Meyer, “When a woman becomes pregnant her husband seed is planted in her womb and the child grows and grows and grows and develops then it gives birth. Well that is what happens when we receive Christ. We receive a seed of peace, a seed of righteousness, a seed of joy. Everything comes to us as a seed.”

Chris Rosebrough, “In our wombs uh huh again what verse says this?”

Joyce Meyer, “As we water it with the Word of God and we let the Holy Spirit work in our lives to pull the weeds out of our life and as we grow and we grow then one thing after another we give birth to these beautiful things that God has put in our life and they become our experience rather than something we just read about and never experience.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Again I just have to ask the question what passage of scripture says this? I am not familiar with any passage of scripture that says anything even remotely close to this. She well Luke 10 v 19 doesn’t say this that is for sure. Proverbs 18 v 21 sure doesn’t say this. Yet she just said it so matter of factly. This is nothing more than an assertion. This is a theological assertion without any biblical text to back any of it up.”

Joyce Meyer, “How many of you understand what I am saying? So you don’t even have to pray for peace. You have got peace. You need to pray that God will teach how to walk in the peace that you have. You don’t have to be, ‘Oh God I need joy.’ You say, ‘No God I believe your joy is in me. Teach me how to not to give up my joy. Teach me how to not let the devil steal my joy.’

We don’t need to keep praying for something we have already got. We need to start making use out of it. You don’t need to pray God give me power. You say, ‘God I believe that I have power on the inside of me. I am agreeing with you. I believe that I have power on the inside of me. Now teach me how to walk in that power.’

You will be amazed at how much different you feel. If you will just start to think and speak about what you already have. I mean you will just be like I have power. Wow I am anointed. I have abilities. Instead of going around, ‘I don’t have any power. I don’t have any peace. I don’t have any joy. Nobody loves me. Oh come on we are going to have too much fun this weekend….”

Chris Rosebrough, “By the way this is exactly what the apostle Paul prophesied would happen to the Christian church. If you are not familiar with the prophecy that I am referring you can find it in 2 Timothy 4. The apostle Paul he writes to young pastor Timothy. He says….

2 Timothy 4 v 1-4 (ESV – English Standard Version)

1 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.

Yeah what she is preaching here, by the way she shouldn’t be preaching. She is not biblically qualified to be a pastor is she? Nope she shouldn’t be preaching. But what she is preaching is a mythology. One that scratches itching ears if you would. Tells people things they want to hear.

‘Oh you are powerful. God has got a big thing for you and your words they have the ability to create the future. But make sure you only say the positive stuff. Because you can cut off you know God’s power with your negative words and things like that. You are in control. You are in the driver’s seat and all you have got to do is say positive things and positive things will happen to you because you can create your future.’ The Bible nowhere teaches this. This is as much mythology as the stories of Zeus and Athena and Hercules and Euripides and people like that and all the Euripides and ippities and uppities of Greek mythology. Yeah if you have read The Odyssey and the Iliad and the Odyssey you know.

This is as much mythology as that. Because this isn’t taught in scripture, this teaching has its origin not in the clear passages of scripture, but in the minds and wicked hearts of televangelists who have made a lot of money gathering for themselves a following of people telling them exactly what they want to hear, rather than preaching what God’s Word really says. They are heretics. They are false teachers. They are people leading people to hell. Because they are pointing them to themselves rather than to the truth, the truth that they are sinners in need of a Saviour – that Christ died for their sins and that God is sovereign.

God is Lord and He calls all men everywhere to repent and to be forgiven of their idolatry and their wickedness and their false doctrine and their false mythologies that are spoken in all ways by hijacking the name of Christ and using His word to try to create the impression that this is what God’s Word teaches, when it doesn’t teach anything of the sort. Something to think about…..

Alright we are up on our second break and if you would like to email me regarding anything you have heard on this edition or any previous editions of Fighting for the Faith you can do so my email address is talkback@fightingforthefaith.com or you can subscribe to me on Facebook. It is facebook.com/piratechristian or you can follow me on Twitter. My name there is @piratechristian.

Fighting for the Faith With Chris Rosebrough – Joyce Meyer Waxes Word of Faith – part 1

Below is a transcript taken from Chris Rosebrough’s radio show podcast Fighting For The Faith Radio podcast which was originally broadcast on Monday July 15th 2013, which you can subscribe to on iTunes. I highly recommend you do this if you want to develop discernment. 

You can also watch the video of Joyce Meyer’s sermon – Your Mouth and God’s Power > http://youtu.be/AdpJzngXKQg 

Here is the video link for this transcript > http://youtu.be/dHfNjLgIxwM

First Segment [00:06:06 – 00:15:48]

Chris Rosebrough, “Let’s talk about what we are going to do on today’s episode of Fighting for the Faith. We are going to take the pirate ship out of dry dock, head to sea we have hoisted the main sail already and in fact we are land is quickly vanishing behind us as we are acquiring our next heretical targets if you would and what I thought I would do today on Fighting for the Faith is two things.

You know rather than you know kind of pepper you with different topics here in the first hour. You know take the ship out to sea and see you know, put her through her paces and see if we still have what it takes to do all this stuff. But there is two things I want to do today.

One is I want to circle back. Since a few weeks ago we talked about the kind of the oppressive slavery that occurs to people, the bondage that they are put into in the Word of Faith heresy and one of the most famous Word of Faith heretics out there is none other than Joyce Meyer. Now Joyce Meyer just before I went on vocation she spoke at Steven Furtick’s Code Orange Underground.

Now if you remember it was last year in January of last year. Steven Furtick had what I call at that time The Heresy Olympics and that is the best way I can put it and you know we even had awards that we handed out, medals that we handed out at the end of The Heresy Olympics and it was called The Code Orange Revival and Steven Furtick being the kind of guy that he is hating haters you know, because a hater is anybody who would dare to challenge what he is saying you know with God’s Word in context and sound biblical doctrine and things like that. Has decided to take the whole Code Orange Revival underground this year and I am all for that. I think that is great.

If he wants to keep it underground, he can put it under as many rocks as he wants and I am all fine with that, because at that point he is not really infecting the church at large with the you know the teachings of these heretics. He is only infecting his own church and they are already infected and probably beyond help anyway. But so he has take the entire endeavour to Code Orange and put it underground and it can stay there.

But you know the instalment of Code Orange Underground that happened just before I went on vocation he you know there were in fact on Steven Furtick’s Instagram account there is a photograph that somebody took with you know Joyce Meyer in the foreground and Steven Furtick’s sitting on a couch on the background and Steven Furtick has this huge cheesy, ‘Oh I am loving this,’ kind of grin going on thing and so anyway that is kind of all off topic.

But what we are going to do today is we are going to circle back and we are going to listen to a segment of Joyce Meyer’s teaching regarding words being containers. Words you know creating our future and stuff like that and once you buy into the Word of Faith heresy that words create your future, then what happens is that you no longer can speak the truth about what is going on in your life.

So if you buy into the Word of Faith heresy and you are suffering from you know maybe heart disease or high blood pressure and you go to the doctor and the doctor says, ‘Listen you have got to take these meds,’ and by the way this is not an off topic illustration.

I recently received an email from somebody whose father brought into the Word of Faith heresy and he had high blood pressure and heart problems and the email that I received from him was a really sad story of how this listener believes that the Word of Faith heresy killed his father. But see here is the idea is that you know it is a false belief that turns your faith into your faith. Basically it is faith in your faith. You know it is a strange thing and that is that you have got to muster up enough belief. That is the work that you have got to do.

Belief in your belief and then when God believes that you can believe enough, then what happens is that then you have earned the right for His blessings and things like that and of course you know since negative words create a negative future for you. You can’t say things like, ‘Oh you know listen I went to the doctor and the doctor said, ‘You know hey you have got high blood pressure. You are going to need to really get this addressed. There is procedures that we can do and maybe you are having heart problems and maybe one of your arteries is clogged.

That is okay. We can go in and we can with all of the technology we have and the procedures we have it will be an outpatient procedure. We will clear out your arteries and all that. But you can’t say, ‘Oh okay that is a great idea. I need to have my heart you know take a look at it. You know things like that. Because why because well you can’t say the negative thing. Because if you say the negative thing, it will create the negative outcome in your life and so the way to create a positive future is to only speak positively.

So what we are going to do is we are going to circle back and we are going to listen to Joyce Meyer talking about words that create your future. You know your words being containers and listen to her responding to a listener email. Now I have done. You know I have listened to this. In fact I have reviewed this response of hers on a past episode of Fighting for the Faith.

But I want to again circle back and with this idea that the Word of Faith heresy puts people in bondage so they cannot speak the truth about what is going on in their life. It creates this you know bondage where you are in bondage to the happy. You are in bondage to the positive. You can’t say the negative. You can’t say what a real thing really is and ultimately how that impacts their gospel presentation.

You know the quintessential example would be somebody like Joel Osteen. You never really Joel Osteen talking about sin now do you? Now well because that is negative and you know so it affects how they present the gospel. The reason being is that the good news is that Christ died for our sins, an example of somebody being justified is given by Jesus Himself and it is you know the story the parable The Pharisee and the Tax Collector.

The Pharisee sits there and says all these positive things about himself. (Luke 18 v 11) ‘Oh LORD I thank you that I am so great that I tithe and that I am not a sinner and that you know I am not like the evil person, like that tax collector over there.’

(Luke 18 v 13) Right but the tax collector can’t even look to heaven and his prayer is, ‘LORD have mercy on me a sinner.’ And God blesses and justifies. It is more than just a blessing, He justifies, He saves, He declares to be righteous well the tax collector and the tax collector his justification came through a negative confession. A confessing that he was a sinner. But if you believe that negative words create negative outcomes you can’t say that you are a sinner because what that will do is you are going to affirm that up and you are going to be a sinner for the rest of your life. That is going to destroy you.

No what does scripture say? If we say we have no sin the truth is not in us.

1 John 1 v 8-9 (ESV – English Standard Version)

If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

So the scripture tells us to speak truthfully about ourselves and in speaking truthfully about ourselves as being sinners. That is the penitent contrition and humbling and broken spirit and heart that God is looking for whereby then He says, ‘I forgive you.’ You see penitence and the forgiveness of sins go hand in hand and penitence of course is the ultimate speaking negatively of yourself. It is saying, ‘God I cannot by my own reason or strength come to you. God I am a sinner. I am sinful by nature. I sin against you in thought, word, and deed by what I do, by what I don’t do.

You know and so that negative confession. ‘If we say we have no sins, the truth is not in us. But if we confess our sins, God is faithful and just to forgive us.’

1 John 1 v 8-9 (ESV – English Standard Version)

If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

That negative confession about ourselves, saying that we have nothing. That we are spiritually impoverished, bankrupt if you would. It is that sign that the Holy Spirit has actually worked its work in your life and brought you to penitent to repentance and remorse for your sin and that is well that is goes hand in hand with the forgiveness of sins. Because as Christ says, ‘The one who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.’

Luke 14 v 11 (ESV – English Standard Version)

11 For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

So the Word of Faith heresy has you constantly exalting yourself, saying how, ‘I am great. I am the head. I am not the tail. I am the cat’s meow. I am beautiful. I am skinny. I am rich. I am prosperous. I am healthy, wealthy and wise,’ and always exalting yourself as if somehow that proves to God that you somehow have believed Him. That is not what God’s Word teaches.

So like I said we will circle back listen to a little Joyce Meyer on this with that framework in mind that the Word of Faith heresy puts you in bondage to the positive and causes you to not be able to speak the truth about your situation and speak the truth about what you really are and that is a sinner and so ultimately it affects the gospel.

Second Segment [00:17:34 – 00:53:31]

Chris Rosebrough, “But with that we are going to dive into the programme proper and this is our Joyce Meyer update music. Here we go…..

[Plays intro music for Joyce Meyer]

             Wolfmother – Joker and Thief

I said the joker is a wanted man,
He makes his way all across the land,
See him sifting through the sand,

So I’ll tell you all the story,
About the joker and the thief of the night,

Always laughing in the midst of power,
Always living in the final hour,
There is always sweet in the sour,

We are not going home,

Can you see the joker flying over,
As she’s standing in the field of clover,
Watching out everyday?
I wonder what would happen if he took her away?

Alright Wolfmother Joker and The Thief. I think that is appropriate update music for Joyce Meyer. So the name of the teaching from Joyce Meyer’s television programme that we are going to be looking at today is entitled, hang on a second where did it go? There it is right there. Containers Called Words and you are thinking what an earth does that mean? Well the best way I can say it is I can’t exactly describe it to you. It is best if I just let Joyce Meyer explain it to you. So without any further or due. Here is Joyce Meyer talking about the Word of Faith heresy as if it is biblical teaching and it is not but listen in. Here we go….

Joyce Meyer, “Welcome to Enjoying Everyday Life. Romans 4 v 17 says that God speaks of the nonexistent things as if they existed.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Now I am going to stop right there. Yeah that is right God speaks of the things that are not as if they are. It doesn’t say we do. It says God does. Now see this is a category error and what I mean by that is that is this that God is God, we are not. We are not little gods.

Although Joyce Meyer has taught that we are that is not what the scriptures teach. In fact that is kind of the first lie of the devil going all the way back to the garden of Eden. Remember the temptation where you know when you know Satan says you know via the serpent to Eve….

Genesis 3 v 1 (ESV – English Standard Version)

1 Did God actually say, ‘You shall not eat of any tree in the garden’?”

And she says, ‘You know. Oh no but God said, ‘Don’t touch this one or eat of it. The day you surely die,’

Genesis 3 v 2 (ESV – English Standard Version)

And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden, but God said, ‘You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.’”

And then Satan says, ‘No you will not surely die. But God knows that on the day that you will be like God.’

Genesis 3 v 4-5 (ESV – English Standard Version)

But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

Okay we are not God. Okay God is an omnipotent, almighty powerful being. He is in a category completely different than we are. We are not deities. We are humans. We are creatures and scripture makes it clear that in our creation we are a little lower than the angels. That is you know so let’s kind of get the importance going on here. So when it says that God speaks of the things that are not as though they are….

Romans 4 v 17 (ESV – English Standard Version)

17 As it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist

It does not then in that passage say, ‘Therefore you must speak of the things that are not as if they are….’ You know that is not how that works. God is capable through His almighty omnipotent power to speak the universe into existence and we find in Genesis that He did that in six days and days by the way you know what it means? Days yeah days and but we just because Romans says that God talks about the things, speaks about the things that are not as if they are, that does not mean that we are to do that. There is no prescription in scripture for us to do the same thing.

Joyce Meyer, “How about you? How do you talk about your future? This whole week we have been have been discovering that our words can and do have an impact on our lives and the lives of other people. Later in the programme we will have some teaching from Winstin Sail, North Carolina about little phrases that will help us build a better future.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Little phrases that will help us build a better future, wow….”

Joyce Meyer, “But right now Ginger has some viewer questions regarding our words. Ginger I bet you have got some good questions don’t you?”

Ginger Stache, “I have some great questions today. Thanks for letting us ask them. This comes from Brandy in Denver and Brandy says I have a question about the scripture, Proverbs 18 v 21, “Life and death are in the power of the tongue.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Which by the way is out of context…..”

Ginger Stache, “How can I share with God my hurts and securities, frustrations and pain in a healthy way, I want to stay honest with Him and receive the help that I need. But I don’t want to speak negative things at the same time.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Okay now did you catch that? What is this about? Okay Joyce Meyer teaches the Word of Faith heresy and she has now put people into the bondage of the positive. Okay so and she has done this via you know taking that passage from Proverbs out of context “Life and death are in the power of the tongue.”

As if that passage is basically saying you create your future via your words, either positive or negative. That is not what that passage says by the way. In fact what we might want to do here is take a look at it in context. Proverbs 18 v 21 by the way is the passage and let’s take a look at it real quick, so you understand what is going on.

Over and again I have to do this because people you know they will start listening to the programme and then whether or not we have addressed this in previous episodes of Fighting for the Faith. So sometimes I have to be redundant. Okay let me start at, we are going to apply our three rules of biblical interpretation or hermeneutics. They are context, context, context. So Proverbs 18 v 19.

Proverbs 18 v 19-23

19 A brother offended is more unyielding than a strong city, and quarrelling is like the bars of a castle. 20 From the fruit of a man’s mouth his stomach is satisfied; he is satisfied by the yield of his lips. 21 Death and life are in the power of the tongue, and those who love it will eat its fruits. 22 He who finds a wife finds a good thing and obtains favour from the Lord.

So the question is what is meant by death and life are in the power of the tongue? Is it saying therefore that means, that if you speak positive words positive things will happen to you? Answer no, the text actually doesn’t say that.

What it is talking about there is productive speech, speech that is satisfying, speech that you know that it is constructive and beneficial speech and then the consequences of speech. So what people say can lead to life or death and so this Proverbs affirms this point and then explains it, that those who love it will eat its root. The reference it must be the tongue. What the tongue says so that they who enjoy talking must bear its fruits whether good or bad.

So let me give you an example. Okay so you can tear somebody down with your words, alright and if you tear somebody down with your words they might you know decide that what they are going to do is let you pay for that and kill you for saying something they don’t like. That could potentially happen. So there is consequences to your speech. So the idea here is that if you are going to speak, do so in a way that is truthful, that is accurate, that takes thoughts captive or builds people up properly.

For instance let me give you another example. You know death and life are in the power of the tongue. If you are speaking the truth about God and not taking His name in vain, then you are preaching the gospel and properly speaking the truth about God and you are building people up. If you are speaking heresy and speaking false words you are tearing people down and actually poisoning their souls and endangering them in the fires of hell.

But death and life are in the power of the tongue, it is this is by the way, you are not going to find then in The New Testament passages that flesh this out and say, ‘Therefore if you want a good future, you must speak positive words.’ That is nowhere found in scripture and so here is the idea.

In order for a doctrine to be established in as biblical doctrine. It must be done so with a clear, ‘Thus sayeth the LORD.’ Okay so if this passage death and life are in the power of the tongue really meant that if you want to be healthy and prosperous, then you speak positive affirmations over your life and positively confess there would be other clear passages that teach that exact same doctrine. But there are not.

So coming back then to Joyce Meyer and this email question from a listener who has heard Joyce Meyer’s teaching regarding Proverbs 18 v 21 and now she is asking the question, ‘Well how do I speak about my life without saying negative things, so that I can have positive outcomes in my life.’ So notice this person emailing in is already in bondage to Joyce Meyer’s Word of Faith heresy teaching. This is not what The Bible teaches and now she is trying to figure out, ‘Well how do I speak about my life in a way that I don’t destroy my future.’ Listen again…..”

Ginger Stache, “I have some great questions today. Thanks for letting us ask them. This comes from Brandy in Denver and Brandy says, ‘I have a question about the scripture, Proverbs 18 v 21, “Life and death are in the power of the tongue.” How can I share with God my hurts and securities, frustrations and pain in a healthy way, I want to stay honest with Him and receive the help that I need.’

Chris Rosebrough, “I want to stay honest with God….”

Ginger Stache, “But I don’t want to speak negative things at the same time.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Yeah because if you do that somehow now your words are like magic. They create your future. Well what does Joyce Meyer say?”

Joyce Meyer, “One of the things that I tell people is that you can talk about a negative situation in a positive way.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Oh so now it is the art of learning how to talk about a negative situation in a positive way, so that you don’t cause a negative future to occur in your life.”

Joyce Meyer, “God doesn’t expect us not to talk to Him about the problem or to tell Him honestly when we are hurting. The Bible says that He desires truth in the inward being. So He wants us to be truthful with ourself and truthful with Him and even truthful with other people.

If I am having a problem and you say to me, ‘You look a little like maybe something is bothering you Joyce, are you okay?’ I don’t need to lie to you. I can say, “Yeah I am going through something right now but you know I really believe that God is on top of it.’ If I am praying and I believe He is going to work it out.

I don’t have to get negative about it. So yes….

Chris Rosebrough, “Yeah and by the way the reason she is saying you don’t have to get negative about it, because if you get negative about it, you will create that negative outcome in your life.’

Joyce Meyer, ‘We can talk to God about whatever is bothering us. But at the same time we can say but I know that your Word is true and I believe that you are going to work in this situation. If there is something you need me to do please show me and work through me to enable me to do it and I trust you.”

Ginger Stache, “Right….”

Joyce Meyer, “I trust you and I believe that it will all work out good.”

Ginger Stache, “There is a really important key in there that you are saying is God does want us to be truthful.”

Joyce Meyer, “Yes….”

Ginger Stache, “We have to be real.”

Joyce Meyer, “Yes….”

Ginger Stache, “We have to be real and even with our friends and people we love. But we can’t be throwing out those negative feelings everywhere we go.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Yeah then the reason why you can’t be throwing out those negative feelings because those negative words will create a negative future.”

Joyce Meyer, “Yeah and I think sometimes that Christians maybe who believe in positive confession or making sure that they say the right thing. If you get too spiritually weird with that you know it can come across wrong to people especially people who don’t understand and so they begin to think….”

Chris Rosebrough, “Come across wrong? The Bible doesn’t actually teach the positive confession doctrine anywhere in clear unambiguous language. The only way you can get to it is by proof texting vague passages and pouring this meaning into those passages. But they don’t actually say it when you look at what they are saying in context.”

Joyce Meyer, “Well you are not real, you are not even dealing with real life. I mean you are not even telling the truth.” That is why I think it is important to be truthful. But to be positive and also we don’t have to talk about our problems and talk about them and talk about them.”

Ginger Stache, “Right….”

Joyce Meyer, “You know even with God we can tell Him you know I am really hurting or tomorrow I can say I am still really hurting. You know but I believe that you are taking care of this. We can always talk about it in a positive way.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Yeah so just don’t whatever you do, don’t talk about it in a negative way because you will create that negative outcome. Okay what I am going to do right now I am going to change gears.

I am going to go backwards into the archives of Joyce Meyer’s programme just a few days to find out what exactly is she talking about here. These this power of words to and how we can’t speak negative things and how we can, we need to learn how to be authentic about what is going on in our lives. But don’t do it in a way that is negative. But speak about it in a way that is positive. What is this theology that she is spewing here? Well this is part and parcel of the Word of Faith heresy and Joyce Meyer is one of the purveyors of the Word of Faith heresy.

So here is from a previous episode of her programme called Your Mouth and God’s Power. Here is Joyce Meyer. Listen in…..”

Joyce Meyer, “Tonight in particular I want to talk to you about words and how they affect the anointing on your life or how they affect the power and the presence of God on your life.”

Chris Rosebrough, “So words affect God’s anointing on your life and the presence and power of God in your life, words do.”

Joyce Meyer, “I went to church for a lot of years and I never heard anything about the power of God. I never really heard the word anointing and that is sad because the Holy Spirit brings the anointing of God into our lives and that anointing, that power, that presence of God on our lives….”

Chris Rosebrough, “Yeah okay this is great. I want you to pay attention to what she is doing here. This is an assertion. She is not actually exegeting this out of a biblical text. So I don’t know what she is talking about. You know that you know our words have the power regarding God’s anointing on our life. Now I know about Jesus Christ Christos, the Greek word Christos χριστὸς means the anointed one. The Hebrew for this מָשִׁיחַ‎; mashiahmoshiahmashiach, or moshiach the anointed one.

So I know about the anointed one Jesus Christ. But what is she talking about when she is talking about our anointing. She is not teaching this from a biblical text that is talking about our anointing. So I am not sure what she is talking about and this is some kind of an assertion she is making without a text that she is exegeting it from.

That is always one of the major tactics of a false teacher. Rather than exegeting a passage and showing you what a passage says in context and drawing doctrine out of clear passages. They begin with their assertions and then go fishing for proof texts that support their assertions. This is not how biblical theology or Christian theology is done.”

Joyce Meyer, “I never really heard the word anointing and that is sad because the Holy Spirit brings the anointing of God into our lives and that anointing, that power, that presence of God on our lives in our lives and on our lives is one of the most precious gifts that we have. The presence of God in your life, the power of God that is in you and on you for whatever you need to do is the most precious thing that you have in your life and you must protect it. The power of God….”

Chris Rosebrough, “Hmm…okay and where does it say in scripture that this anointing is precious and I must protect the anointing? I don’t know of those passages. I don’t know what passages you are referring to….”

Joyce Meyer, “The power of God in our lives needs to be reverenced, honoured, and protected and one of the ways that we can do great damage to that beautiful anointing is by having a mixture in our life.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Now notice what she is going to do here. She is going to mix a few things together so that you can’t see the hook.”

Joyce Meyer, “Praising God when we are in church and singing all these songs and quoting scriptures….”

Chris Rosebrough, “That is the positive stuff….”

Joyce Meyer, “Praising God when we are in church and singing all these songs and quoting scriptures and hearing the Word and then going out and gossiping about people and being judgemental and critical.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Yes gossiping is a sin by the way. It is akin to murder.”

Joyce Meyer, “Praising God when we are in church and singing all these songs and quoting scriptures and hearing the Word and then going out and gossiping about people and being judgemental and critical and negative and murmuring and complaining and speaking all kinds of doubt and unbelief.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Speaking all kinds of doubt and unbelief. Huh yeah I am not sure we are dealing with a clear passage here. In fact I am pretty sure we are not.”

Joyce Meyer, “Are we all together on the same page? [Crowd says, ‘Yeah….’]

Chris Rosebrough, “Nope….”

Joyce Meyer, “We need to get rid of the mixture. You say….”

Chris Rosebrough, “Ah you have to get rid of the mixture. You can mix the positive and the negative uh…..”

Joyce Meyer, “You say a few things good, then the power starts to increase in your life. Then you say a few things negative and it decreases and goes back to zero.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Okay I have got to back that up so you can hear it without me interrupting. Wow was that horrible. Yeah listen in…..”

Joyce Meyer, “We need to get rid of the mixture. You say a few things good, then the power starts to increase in your life. Then you say a few things negative and it decreases and goes back to zero.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Okay so there is the Word of Faith heresy. ‘You say a few things good the power increases, you say a few negative things and it goes back to zero.’ Everything hinges on whether or not you are speaking positively or negatively. Yet there isn’t any passage in scripture that clearly says, ‘If you speak positive words, God’s power will positively increase in your life, but if you speak negative words then it will go down to zero. There isn’t a passage in scripture that says this.”

Joyce Meyer, “We have to get consistent in saying what God says. It is not about just saying anything we want to say. But learning how to say what God says and no matter how impossible it seems to us. When we read one of God’s promises in the Word the only thing that He wants to hear from us is, ‘I agree with you God. If you say that you can do that, then I believe that you can do that. It may be impossible with man, but all things are possible with God.’

Chris Rosebrough, “Yeah let me point something out here. Yes this is kind of basic when you confess that God is almighty, all-powerful, you are saying that all things are possible with Him. That though there is no clear promise in scripture that says as soon as you are able to confess that God is almighty, well then He is going to work in a powerful way in your life. There is no passage that says that.”

Joyce Meyer, “We have to learn how to come into agreement with God. Some of you are sitting in church week after week and you are watching my programme and you have even come to this conference and you so desperately need God to work in your life and you want to, but I can tell you it was this way in my life and I am not trying to insult you.”

Chris Rosebrough, “She is not pointing to a biblical passage now she is pointing to her own personal experience.”

Joyce Meyer, “I am trying to help you. You just keep digging in deeper with your own mouth. It doesn’t do any good just to hear somebody say it, you have got to learn to say what God says. The whole reason to hear the Word of God is so you can learn to say what God says. The Word of God in your mouth spoken out loud in faith is your number one most powerful weapon against the enemy. If you want to defeat the devil, you have to learn how to speak the Word.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Now this is interesting because there is an element of truth to this that is mixed in with some error and what I mean by this is that when we talk about the armour of God, the Word of God is the sword of the Spirit. The Word of God so we are to say the same things that scripture says, but she is not here.

She has basically created a magic theology and she is actually one of the purveyors of this. I don’t think she created it herself, a magic theology that if you can stay and believe the promises of God that it becomes a powerful talisman. The Word of God is a talisman in this way. You say the same thing. It is the spell book. Once you can believe it within your heart enough then the spell itself will work. This is witchcraft. This is absolutely the same kind of witchcraft that you see in Wicca and other things.”

Joyce Meyer, “Not speak what you feel, not speak what you think, not speak what people tell you, but the Word of God. Anybody can have the promises of God fulfilled in their lives….”

Chris Rosebrough, “If…..”

Joyce Meyer, “If they will learn how to come into agreement with God.”

Chris Rosebrough, “There you go, so this is a works based religion. Okay plain and simple. Anybody can have the promises of God fulfilled in their life, if and then you have got to come, you have got to….you have got to….this is all law. This is not gospel and it is a complete twisting of God’s Word. Nowhere in scripture does it say this. God’s gifts are not contingent upon you. He is the giver. They do not have their origin in you and God is not sitting up in heaven waiting for you to do something.”

Joyce Meyer, “To do what God tells you to do and to say what God says amen….”

Chris Rosebrough, “No I cannot say amen to this. This is blasphemy.”

Joyce Meyer, “Proverbs 18 v 21 says, “The power of life and death are in the tongue.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Again I have pointed this out. When you look at this in context, you read a good commentary on it. It is very clear what is being talked about here is not that this is saying that if you speak positive things, positive things will happen to you. If you speak negative things then God’s power will whoosh, vanish. That is not what this text says.”

Joyce Meyer, “Now we are going to look at those scriptures a little more completely in other messages. Tonight I am going to kind of lay a foundation and talk to you about this the anointing on our lives and the importance of maintaining that anointing. I think today there is probably even a good number of people that don’t even really know what the anointing is, well Christ is called the anointed one.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Yes he is.”

Joyce Meyer, “That is what the word Christ means the anointed one. Jesus the anointed one and the anointing, the power of God, the Holy Spirit was sent to represent Jesus when Jesus went to heaven and sat at the Father’s right hand. He is the presence of God. When we…..”

Chris Rosebrough, “Again what passage are you exegeting from Joyce? I am not familiar with these passages that say this.”

Joyce Meyer, “When we feel the presence of God. When we are singing these beautiful worship songs, that is the Holy Spirit in our midst. When you feel or sense the power of God on you to do something that you need to do. That is the presence of God coming on your life….”

Chris Rosebrough, “How do you know you are not being deceived by the devil and that this is really just the devil masquerading as an angel of light, making you feel something.”

Joyce Meyer, “That is the presence of God coming on your life to help you and enable you to do what you need to do and the more you agree with God the more power is going to be released in your life.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Oh man what passage of scripture says the more you agree with God the more power will be released in your life? There isn’t one. This is by the way what it means to take God’s name in vain. This is blasphemy. The Bible nowhere says this.”

Joyce Meyer, “Let’s look at Luke 1 v 11….”

Chris Rosebrough, “Okay let’s take a look at Luke 1 v 11.”

Joyce Meyer, “Luke 1 beginning in v11….

Luke 1 v 11-13 (AB – Amplified Bible)

11 And there appeared to him an angel of the Lord, standing at the right side of the altar of incense. 12 And when Zachariah saw him, he was troubled, and fear took possession of him. 13 But the angel said to him, Do not be afraid, Zachariah, because your petition was heard, and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son,

Now he has been praying for something that when God tells Him, He is about to get it, he won’t believe God. Have you ever prayed for something and then when you get it you say, ‘I just can’t believe that.’ Well why are we praying if we are not expecting and believing God to do something?

Luke 1 v 13-16 (AB – Amplified Bible)

13 Your petition was heard, and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you must call his name John [God is favourable].14 And you shall have joy and exultant delight, and many will rejoice over his birth, 15 For he will be great and distinguished in the sight of the Lord. And he must drink no wine nor strong drink, and he will be filled with and controlled by the Holy Spirit even in and from his mother’s womb. 16 And he will turn back and cause to return many of the sons of Israel to the Lord their God,

And I mean a roundabout now Elijah, I mean Zachariah should have been just hopping up and down inside like woah help praise the LORD, he is alert exceedingly abundantly above and beyond. I just asked for a child, but I am going to get a famous one.

             Luke 1 v 17 (AB – Amplified Bible)

17 And he will [himself] go before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah,

Him he was talking about the Saviour.

Luke 1 v 17 (AB – Amplified Bible)

17 To turn back the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient and incredulous and unpersuadable to the wisdom of the upright [which is the knowledge and holy love of the will of God]—in order to make ready for the Lord a people [perfectly] prepared [in spirit, adjusted and disposed and placed in the right moral state].

He is telling him and your son this child that you have been praying for is going to be the forerunner for the Saviour. He is going to go ahead of Him and prepare the way.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Now I am going to pause here for a second. If you have not heard my lecture series on how to not be snookered and bamboozled and hoodwinked by religious conmen, snake oil and salesmen and stuff like that. Go look that up on the Fighting for the Faith website. Just type in the word snookered you will find it and in there and four lectures I lay out the sound biblical exegetical you know principles, that the idea here and here is the idea.

She is preaching or she shouldn’t be preaching from a historical narrative. Okay and here is the analogy that I use alright if you were to just read the historical narrative accounts of the death of Jesus Christ, would you know the theological significance of that historical event? Answer no you need a theological explanation of a historical narrative to give us what is going on theologically here.

Okay now it is important to note this. That what where she is going to go with this Zachariah, doesn’t believe and he doubts the word that the angel spoke. Okay yet the angel was sent directly from the throne of God alright and as a result of it God or the angel punishes him by basically making it impossible for him to speak until John is born. Basically knots up his tongue and makes it so he can’t talk and that is a punishment for not believing.

Now that being the case she is going to use this here to try and basically say, ‘Well see this is about positive confession.’ No it is not. This not a text about positive confession, okay because here is the deal it says early on in The Gospel of Luke’s account here that Zachariah and his wife prayed. They didn’t declare, they petitioned God. Let me read the text again. I will start at Luke 1 v 8.

Luke 1 v 8 (ESV – English Standard Version)

Now while he was serving as priest before God when his division was on duty, according to the custom of the priesthood, he was chosen by lot to enter the temple of the Lord and burn incense.10 And the whole multitude of the people were praying outside at the hour of incense. 11 And there appeared to him an angel of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of incense. 12 And Zechariah was troubled when he saw him, and fear fell upon him. 13 But the angel said to him, “Do not be afraid, Zechariah, for your prayer has been heard,

Your prayer, not your proclamation, not your positive confession, your prayer is a petition. It is a request. It is humbly asked for. So the idea here is that even though Elizabeth, his wife and him they were blameless before God and righteous before God and blameless before others. They had no child and despite the fact that they had prayed and requested of God that they have a child.

They have become old in age and here the angel is basically saying, ‘God has heard your request, your prayer, your petition and He is answering it in the affirmative.’ Okay so this isn’t a story about positive or negative confession. This is a story about God answering a prayer and Zachariah not believing the word of the Lord. Even though an angel came and delivered that word. Okay big difference as opposed to your words create a positive you know outcome either good or bad, that is not the case at all.

Joyce Meyer, “Zachariah said to the angel v18….

Luke 1 v 18 (AB – Amplified Bible)

18 And Zachariah said to the angel, By what shall I know and be sure of this?

Prove it to me God.

Luke 1 v 18 (AB – Amplified Bible)

18 For I am an old man, and my wife is well advanced in years.

So here he has been praying for a child. But he already thinks he is too old to have one. He thinks his wife is too old. So look what happens?

Luke 1 v 19-20 (AB – Amplified Bible)

19 And the angel replied to him, I am Gabriel. I stand in the [very] presence of God, and I have been sent to talk to you and to bring you this good news. 20 Now behold, you will be and will continue to be silent and not able to speak till the day when these things take place, because you have not believed what I told you; but my words are of a kind which will be fulfilled in the appointed and proper time.

So God supernaturally shut Zachariah’s mouth and I wouldn’t mind to have a little of that sometime myself amen and He had to do it in order for His plan to come to pass in his life.…”

Chris Rosebrough, “No it did not, the text did not say that the angel had to shut his mouth in order for the plan to come about. It does not say that at all in the text. Let me read it. Let me continue reading. Luke 1 v 18…..

Luke 1 v 18-20 (ESV – English Standard Version)

18 And Zechariah said to the angel, “How shall I know this? For I am an old man, and my wife is advanced in years.” 19 And the angel answered him, “I am Gabriel. I stand in the presence of God, and I was sent to speak to you and to bring you this good news. 20 And behold, you will be silent and unable to speak until the day that these things take place, because you did not believe my words, which will be fulfilled in their time.”

So what was the reason according to v20 that Zachariah his mouth was silenced? Because he didn’t believe the words of the angel, it doesn’t say, ‘In order that the My words have to be fulfilled. I have to shut your negative mouth up.’ That is not what the text says at all. She is inserting that into the text and it is not in there.

Joyce Meyer, “The birth of this child was so important as a forerunner to the Messiah and he could see, the angel could see from Zachariah’s initial response that his first words that there was not much chance of that man verbally cooperating with the plan of God….”

Chris Rosebrough, “He didn’t need to verbally cooperate with the plan of God.”

Joyce Meyer, “The birth of this child was so important as a forerunner to the Messiah and he could see, the angel could see from Zachariah’s initial response that his first words that there was not much chance of that man verbally cooperating with the plan of God and so God had to shut his mouth and I just wonder how many of us….”

Chris Rosebrough, “Wow this is blasphemous!”

Joyce Meyer, “And I just wonder how many of us mess up the plan of God for our life. Come on now. I just wonder how many wonderful things God has had planned and how many things He has planned now that if you were not at this conference you would surely mess up by saying things that you shouldn’t say. But thank God because….”

Chris Rosebrough, “Man this is again this is an utter blasphemous twisting of the story. Nowhere in scripture does it say you are going to mess up God’s plans for your life if you say negative words. This is putting every one of these people in bondage to the positive without an actual biblical passage that says, ‘Your words create the future either positive or negative.’ Nowhere in The Bible does it actually say that and quoting Proverbs 18 v 21, ‘Death and life are in the power of the tongue.’ That is a half sentence by the way. That passage actually doesn’t say that either if you would take the time to read it.

Joyce Meyer, “But thank God because you are here this weekend God is not going to have to supernaturally shut your mouth. You are going to learn. Is anybody with me tonight? How many of you see that? Well I guess I just better shut your mouth right now or we are never going to get this done.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Okay I am going to pause it right there and take my break and we will actually have to revisit this full Word of Faith teaching on the part of Joyce Meyer and spend some more time in future instalments of Fighting for the Faith, unpacking the rest of this false teaching. Utterly blasphemous!

No it does not say in the biblical text that God couldn’t do what He was going to do unless He shut the mouth of Zachariah because Zachariah wasn’t speaking positive things, that is not what the text says at all and her twisting of God’s Word is absolutely deceitful, duplicitous and blasphemous.

Okay we are up on our first and only break today and again the programme is a little off. If you would like to email me regarding anything you have heard on this edition or any previous editions of Fighting for the Faith you can do so my email address is talkback@fightingforthefaith.com or you can subscribe on Facebook – facebook.com/piratechristian or you can follow me on Twitter. My name there is @piratechristian.

Fighting for the Faith With Chris Rosebrough – Mark Driscoll’s Tribal Christianity?

Below is a transcript taken from Chris Rosebrough’s radio show podcast Fighting For The Faith Radio podcast which was originally broadcast on Saturday June 1st 2013, which you can subscribe to iTunes. I highly recommend you do this if you want to develop discernment. 

You can also watch the video The Four Points, a sermon preached by Mark Driscoll at The Resurgence (R12) Conference on YouTube > http://youtu.be/37yxhQHeVmo

Here is the video link for this transcript > http://youtu.be/IoSVtZq3mh8

Chris Rosebrough, “Alright moving along and again all three of these segments. The Rick Warren piece, the Andy Stanley piece and now the Mark Driscoll piece – all three of these all work together and since we are doing a Mark Driscoll update it requires me to do this.

[Plays music clip]

Cult of Personality – Living Colour

Look in my eyes, what do you see?
The cult of personality
I know your anger, I know your dreams
I’ve been everything you want to be
I’m the cult of personality
Like Mussolini and Kennedy
I’m the cult of personality
The cult of personality
The cult of personality

Alright there you go. That is our Mark Driscoll update music. Now this video that was posted really not that long ago on May 13th on The Resurgence YouTube channel is entitled The Four Points By Mark Driscoll and it requires a careful listen and we are going to do that. We are going to listen to it almost in its entirety and pay very close attention to the points that Mark Driscoll is making and this will come back to something that I have been trying to kind of flesh out this entire first hour. Now we are actually into the second hour here at Fighting for the Faith.

But it is this idea that these guys are not bound by what scripture says. They are bound by some kind of weird irrational ideology that somehow trumps what scripture says regarding sound doctrine and the truth and the things that, some of the things that Mark Driscoll are going to claim are secondary issues aren’t. I will explain here in a minute. But without any further or due here is Mark Driscoll from The Resurgence Conference last year in Irvine, California and this video is entitled The Four Points By Mark Driscoll. Here we go…..”

Mark Driscoll, “Thank you for joining us. We are very honoured to have you. I am having some vocal trouble. Puberty just hit. I am a late bloomer. I will try and power through. Let me setup our time together.

I am hoping to serve you as you listen to some of the greatest Evangelical leaders in the world today and we part of a great tradition of Evangelicalism that started about 50 years ago with the four guys, I call the four horsemen. It is Billy Graham the evangelist. John Stott the pastor. JI Packer the theologian. In addition to Francis Schaeffer the apologist, any of you read those guys? Inspired by those guys, appreciate those guys? They were part of what Tom Brokaw calls the greatest generation. The generation that really built The United States of America and that really built Evangelicalism and when this Evangelical statement began roughly fifty years ago. It was trying to find the gospel centre. How do we articulate…..”

Chris Rosebrough, “Okay got to point something out here. Notice he said, ‘Evangelical experiment.’ That is a weird phrase. It is one that is so odd, it is worth noting as an odd phrase and so I just wanted to highlight it as we were listening and I would point something out here. I am taking issue with his definition of evangelical and claiming that it only goes back 50 years.

Do you know what the Lutherans are called to this day in Germany? The German term is evangelisch which means the evangelicals. Okay Evangelicalism technically has its beginning and roots in The Reformation with the return of the Evangel or the you know angelion – the gospel. Okay so this is an interesting historical rewrite in the sense that it is myopic and it is myopic because it is only looking at the last 50 years. Rather than the grand sweep of what is considered – what I would consider to be true Evangelical history.

Mark Driscoll, “How do we articulate and communicate the essentials of who Jesus is and what Jesus has done. Out of that came a lot of schools and conferences, a lot of publishing houses that you and I buy the books from to this day and the magazine Christianity Today kind of became the flagship publication for the evangelical experiment and this all happened historically at the waning years of what has been called modernism.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Again here we go. What evangelical experiment? We either have the faith delivered once to the saints or we don’t. It is one or the other.”

Mark Driscoll, “It has been written of a great deal. But during that time in the west the prevailing worldview and ideology was predominantly Christian or at least Christian influenced and then what happened was the postmodern movement late 80s, early mid 90s. There was a lot of what was called deconstruction at that time – critiquing the enlightenment modern movement. Out of that came such things as the emergent church.

Just as there was classic liberalism that came into existence during the modern era that denied some of the essentials of the Christian faith, so then the deconstruction movement of postmodernism started to critique some aspects of Evangelicalism and I was part of some of the early discussions in the mid 1990s. Talking about what is faithful orthodoxy and what is compromise? And sadly some have really in some regards taken the tenants of postmodernism. No truth, no objective truth, no real sovereign God who is unchanging over all and the result has been widespread apostasy.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Okay now this is where I want you to remember what he just said here. Talking about the tenants of postmodernism, no objective truth. Yeah that is one of the tenants of it. In fact postmodernism is irrational in the sense that you know that truth doesn’t transcend a community or a tribe and it is weird to me because having listened to this speech of his now probably like six times. He contradicts himself.

Because he is still truly hanging onto some tenants of post modernity. He just calls it tribalism and so keep that in mind. Post modernity denies the existence of objective transcendent truth that transcends every community. Because remember in postmodernism the individual really doesn’t exist. It is the community that is the or the tribe or the group that is the entity of note. Okay so truth doesn’t transcend a tribe. That is what postmodernism really teaches. Mark Driscoll here actually is still teaching postmodernism.

Mark Driscoll, “Some young leaders that were part of an early movement that I was a part of and it moved from modernism to postmodernism to pluralism and Lesslie Newbigin the great British thinker and Missiologist after spending some time in India wrote a lot about pluralism. That we really then moved into a world that didn’t have a dominant paradigm. It is not like everybody thought like this or everybody was like that.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Again here is the weird part. What he is going to be laying out is a form of pluralism which makes sense in a postmodern context.”

Mark Driscoll, “It was pluralism and I believe now we have made another turn and this is what I want to talk about and prepare you for our time together. I believe we have moved from modernism to postmodernism to pluralism to tribalism and I believe tribalism is where we find ourselves today.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Now I want to be fair to Driscoll at the end of this speech you will hear him say that tribalism is a problem. The problem is that the way he is talking about it. He is working within the context of tribalism as he is laying these things out. Okay so even though he will say at the end, ‘Oh well tribalism is a problem and it is a challenge.’

This entire presentation works from in the context of get this postmodern pluralism in the form of tribalism. That is exactly what he is actually pitching here. Despite the fact that you know as he is laying it out, it kind of sort of sounds like he is taking a shot at it. But not really.”

Mark Driscoll, “And Seft Godin I don’t believe He knows Jesus yet, we can still pray for him. But he says that a tribe is really a group of people linked together by an idea, by a leader, and a way of communicating with one another.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Okay so a tribe is basically get this a cult of personality. That is what a tribe is so what would it you know if you were going to have a tribe gathering around a tribal chief that is a cult of personality, which is the reason why we use the music we use to introduce Mark Driscoll updates. We continue….”

Mark Driscoll, “And that effectively defines what a tribe is and I believe as the world is becoming increasingly more tribal, the church in particular and the Evangelical church has become exceedingly tribal. Some of you may have wondered why this line up? And it is an odd line up.

Tribes are coming together and you are part of an experiment. We hosted this event not in Seattle because we knew we could host an event in Seattle. We have got enough people there and by the grace of God we can complete an event successfully. We wanted to go somewhere else and try something else. Not just one tribe talking trash about the other tribes.

But a gathering of multiple tribes for the sake of Jesus, a kingdom that is bigger and better than any and all of our tribes and of which all of our tribes are a part and so as you are having an opportunity to listen today and this is the preface to our time together. Come with the attitude of a student, not a critic. Come to listen, not to disagree. Come to see where even if they are different than you. Perhaps you are the one who might be wrong. Just something to pray about….”

Chris Rosebrough, “Did you come with the idea that you to listen not disagree? If you listen to me will you, can I tell you Mark I want you to just listen to me and don’t disagree with me because maybe you can be humble and learn something from me. Again this is weird messaging.

Turn off your critical thinking. Turn off your discernment. Stop letting The Bible and what it says get in the way. You can just humble yourself and learn something from some of these other people from these you know other tribe leaders like Rick Warren and James MacDonald and others.

Again this is he is talking out of both sides of his mouth. In a way he is engaging in postmodern deconstruction of what The Bible calls or what The Bible calls us to regarding sound biblical theology and who we truly have true Christian fellowship with.”

Mark Driscoll, “Now in addition so a tribe is connected by an idea and the idea shapers and makers become the tribal leaders and I will call them tribal chiefs and the way they communicate is through such things as magazines, publishing houses, blogs, social media, conferences, schools. These are the means by which tribes communicate with one another.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Okay now I would argue that the reason why there is these quote tribes. He is calling them tribes is exactly because of what the apostle Paul warned us about in Acts 20. I read it for you earlier. Let me read it again Acts 20 v 28-31. Paul basically pleading with the church elders in Ephesus, he says….

Acts 20 v 28-31 (ESV – English Standard Version)

28 Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood. 29 I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; 30 and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them.

Tribal leaders, okay Rick Warren has a tribe and the reason why he has a tribe is because Rick Warren has drawn away the disciples after himself because of the twisted things that he is teaching. He has passed on his twisting of scripture to these followers and these are disciples who are disciples of Rick Warren.

James MacDonald the same way. Mark Driscoll the same way. You get what I am saying this is exactly what the apostle Paul warns about and yet Paul himself says, ‘Listen you know was Paul crucified for you? Did you know, does Apollos you know who is Paul, who is Apollos?

None of those people matter – who matters is Christ and so this gets back to concept that we need to reengage with and the idea of the catholicity of the Christian faith. Okay and tribal leaders are contrary to Christian catholicity and what I mean by that is the universal Christian faith. We are all brothers and sisters in Christ.

If we have been brought to repentant faith and trust in Christ for the forgiveness of our sins and each and every one of us are actually all called to confess and believe and defend the exact same doctrines. No joke. We are not to have unique doctrines. We are not to have doctrines that you can say, ‘Oh well that is Rosebroughian doctrine or that is Lutheran doctrine or that is Calvinistic doctrine. No we are supposed to be catholic and if there is truly a unique Lutheran doctrine then you should not believe it.

Okay if there is truly a unique Calvinistic doctrine that is unique only to Calvinists, yeah that is probably not what the scriptures teach. Now I know this is kind of a major question that we have got to deal with here. But I focus on the major core tenants of the historic orthodox catholic small ‘c’ not Roman Catholic – catholic faith here at Fighting for the Faith.

The place where we should have common ground and there is some more doctrines there that we ought to be agreeing on and the only way we are going to come to agreement is if we open our Bibles and deal honestly with what these texts say. I think it can be done.

It is unity around the core doctrines and when we are looking at men like Rick Warren – these tribal leaders that Mark Driscoll is trying to talk about, all I hear is men who are drawing away disciples after themselves. Not according to Christ.

That is what I am hearing and he is defending that and basically saying, ‘Oh yeah all these tribal leaders. We are all in. It doesn’t matter what you really believe and that is really where he is going to go with this.’ This is a very postmodern pluralistic tribal presentation we are getting from Mark Driscoll. But let’s continue…..”

Mark Driscoll, “And the tribalism in Evangelicalism, it is so strong it is kind of staggering. I have had the great privilege of travelling and meeting a lot of leaders in The US and around the world. I probably shouldn’t tell you this story, but I will. I was having a conversation with a guy you have heard of named T.D. Jakes a while back and….”

Chris Rosebrough, “Who is not our Christian brother. T.D. Jakes is technically a Modalist still. Even though he believes in one God three persons, if by persons you mean manifestations and Mark Driscoll was part of the crime that was committed in Evangelicalism to basically say T.D. Jakes is our Christian brother. That was a flat out crime.”

Mark Driscoll, “And he was asking so he didn’t know who I was. He was a very humbling helpful. He was like, ‘Who the heck are you?’ I was like, ‘Well…..”

Chris Rosebrough, “And notice he is talking about T.D. Jakes as if well he is just a tribal leader within Christendom. No he is not. He is a Word of Faith heretic and a Modalist. He is not our Christian brother.”

Mark Driscoll, “Well I am Mark Driscoll.’ He was, ‘Oh I have never heard of you. I am up in Seattle,’ he was like, ‘I never heard of you.’ Then I said something that I shouldn’t have said and he said, ‘No I have heard of you. You say things you shouldn’t say.’ So that is I was like, ‘Dang it…..’ So I said ‘Well I am sort of part of the Reformed movement. The question was what is that?

For those of you guys who are like Calvinist. You are predestined before the foundations of the world to use the English Standard Version of The Bible, you because that is a tribal marker right? You see because different tribes have different Bible translations. You are Reformed you use the ESV, you are fundamental you use the NASB, you are general Evangelical, you use the NIV. You are kind of Charismatic you probably use the New King James Version.

The tribes have different ways of communicating, articulating and they have different ways of identifying themselves. But my point is that the tribes tend to talk about one another, not with one another and the result is online….”

Chris Rosebrough, “Which is weird, you know I can’t even begin to tell you how many times I have requested formally to have a conversation with Driscoll or with Perry Noble, can’t get it, weird huh? I would love nothing more than to sit down and have a long conversation with Mark Driscoll. We would have a lot to talk about. But every single one of my formal overtures to him has gone unanswered.”

Mark Driscoll, “But my point is that the tribes tend to talk about one another, not with one another and the result is online, we are able to make a point but not a difference. It becomes a lot of….”

Chris Rosebrough, “Yeah now I have got to back this up, because this is one of their major messaging, all these critics and stuff like that you know these doctrinal bickerings. You are making a point, not a difference. Hogwash, if that were true then the apostle Paul was only making a point, when writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit to rebuke those who teach false doctrine.”

Mark Driscoll, “And the result is online. We are able to make a point, but not a difference. It becomes a lot of criticism and in fighting and I am not talking about some sort of unity movement where we all just wear matching sweatshirts, ride tandem bikes and sing love songs to Jesus and call it reconciliation. That is not what I am talking about. What I am talking about is, is there a way for the various tribes to learn from one another and the various tribal leaders to learn from one another for the sake of people meeting Jesus. Because…..”

Chris Rosebrough, “What do I have to learn from T.D. Jakes? He is a heretic, not a tribal leader within Christianity.”

Mark Driscoll, “Because at the end of the day that is what really matters and you know you have got a tribe, when you have got a tribal chief. Every tribe has a chief and I will tell you four things that a tribal chief does. Within Evangelicalism the tribal chief is who? Who was the tribal chief for Evangelicalism the last 50 years?

Billy Graham, people always ask who is the next Billy Graham? No one, no one because today we don’t have a tribe called Evangelicalism. We have Evangelicalism tribalized and probably the closest is guy named Rick Warren you may have heard of I heard he has got a church near here and might visit us later. But when….”

Chris Rosebrough, “Yeah Rick Warren a supreme twister of God’s Word, who claims to know God yet by his works denies it.”

Mark Driscoll, “But when you get to open the inauguration of the president in prayer. You are kind of the tribal chief. Right it is not like rock, paper, scissors and the guy from Chickville Baptist got the job. You have to be somebody. So here are the marks of a tribal chief. Number one they categorize who is in, who is out.”

Chris Rosebrough, “I thought scripture decides who is in and who is out. In other words it is Christ who makes that decision based upon what is revealed in His Word. Weird….”

Mark Driscoll, “That is why when two tribal chiefs come together the tribes freak out. That is why when John Piper sits down with Rick Warren. Guys who are homeschooled and live in the woods and….”

Chris Rosebrough, “Notice the ad hominem attack. That is why when John Piper sits down with Rick Warren guys who are homeschooled who live in the woods. Uh huh…..”

Mark Driscoll, “You know they really freak out and they are like, No he is not on our team,’ and Piper says, ‘Maybe he is….’ No our tribal chief has betrayed us and it all freaks out.”

Chris Rosebrough, “No the problem is that John Piper sat down and basically gave credence to Rick Warren who is a supreme Bible twister and by his methodologies is completely overturning and disrupting and obliterating the biblical church with these methodologies and ideas that are not in accord with what scripture said, but actually the exact polar opposite of what scripture says, how a church is supposed to operate, who it is for and who the pastor is what he is supposed to do and who he serves.

Yeah so no it is this wasn’t, ‘Oh no we have got two tribal chiefs together and all those poor home school kids out there in the middle of the woods got all freaked out because the tribal chiefs getting together. No the problem is that Rick Warren is a man who is duplicitous and a deceiver and claims to know God. But denies him by His constant works which show that he has no allegiance whatsoever to what scripture says regarding sound doctrine and he twists the Bible like it’s a bunch of balloon animals.

One minute it’s a bunny, the next minute it is a sword and the next minute it is a little pony and then it is a little phoofy doll. You know this is what Rick Warren does with the scripture. He has no allegiance to what scripture says at all because he constantly manipulates it in order to make it say what he wants it to say. He is again one of the people that Paul warns us about. One of those guys those deceivers who draw away disciples after themselves not Christ.”

Mark Driscoll, “And what and usually those people are opposed to drinking, but they start acting like they have had a few. So what tends to happen then is the internet, it exacerbates everything. It multiplies everything positively and negatively, because the now the tribes can form and they can communicate and they can criticize. But one of the things that a tribal chief does is they kind of…..”

Chris Rosebrough, “Now notice here what is missing here? Valid biblical criticism. Oh yeah well see the internet has exacerbated all of this right? Yeah it is the internet’s fault. No it is not. The fault is with the false teacher and so here Driscoll is literally exonerating the false teacher and slapping upside the head those who rightly are saying, ‘This is not what the Bible says. This man is twisting the scriptures and is lying to you and deceiving and people need to be warned about his false theology and false doctrine.’ No not in Driscoll’s worldview. ‘No Rick Warren is just a tribal leader and we need to just put aside these secondary issues that are dividing us and we need to humbly learn from each other.’ This is what he is arguing for here.”

Mark Driscoll, “But one of the things that a tribal chief does is they categorize, who is in who is out? Who do we trust? Who do we not? Who do we work with? Who do we not? Number two they have convening powers. So a tribal chief can pull together people from the tribe. You know you are a tribal chief, if you call a meeting and the people show up. If the leaders show up, then that means the chief convenes the meeting.

Number three they also practice clumping. That is what a tribal chief does. Don Carson someone who I have known for years through The Gospel Coalition talks about clumping and this is where different tribes and tribal chiefs will work together and sometimes it is around a common enemy. Like the denial of substitutionary atonement or the denial of hell. Things like that, all of a sudden tribes will clump together against a common enemy or a common doctrine that is an enemy of the gospel. Maybe that is a better way to put it.

Number four the tribal chief endures a lot more criticism than the average person. I don’t know if you have googled certain tribal chiefs and see what things are said about them. But they endure a lot more criticism, opposition and ostracism than the average leader. How many of you are guilty of contributing to that criticism unnecessarily? How many of you in an effort to make a point and not a difference have tried to create a tribe for yourself.

Chris Rosebrough, “Here we go again to make a point and not a difference. That is a slogan designed to basically tell you people, ‘Stop criticizing people who are teaching false theology. Just see them as a tribal leader and we need to find out how we can make a difference for Jesus and you are not making a difference by making a theological point.’ That is duplicitous and it is not even biblical.”

Mark Driscoll, “Defining yourself by whom or what you are against and going negative, instead of going for the positive hope of the gospel of Jesus Christ and for you young guys be careful of two things, be careful that you don’t jump on the latest fad.

There was one that blew through the early 90s and went the way of Hymenaeus and Alexander the emergent movement and make sure that you don’t just become a critic who defines yourself by who or what you are against and you grab a small rabid fan base and do what Charles Haddon Spurgeon called death by a thousand bee stings, while you and your little tribe use your opportunities to criticize others. We have very important things to do. Hell is real. Jesus is alive. People need to be saved.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Yeah and I agree we have very important things to do, which is why I go back to what the apostle Paul said Titus 1 v 9-16.

Titus 1 v 9 (ESV – English Standard Version)

He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.

Teaching sound doctrine and rebuking those who contradict it, falls under one of the primary categories – primary responsibilities of teachers and pastors within Christ’s body the church. As Paul says under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit…..

              Titus 1 v 10-16 (ESV – English Standard Version)

10 For there are many who are insubordinate, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision party. 11 They must be silenced, since they are upsetting whole families by teaching for shameful gain what they ought not to teach.

So silencing false teachers is one of the important things that we need to be doing and that is not my opinion. That is what God’s Word says.”

Mark Driscoll, “And I am not saying that we should in any way reduce our commitment to the gospel. But we should always be humble enough to learn from others. To see if there is a way that we could introduce more people to Jesus that is the big idea.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Okay so the big idea is humble enough to learn from others to see if there is a way to introduce more people to Jesus. So I am going to work with any tribal leader you know like Rick Warren or T.D. Jakes or you know name the heretic right? As long as I humbly learn from these other tribal leaders to see if there is a way for us to introduce more people to Jesus. That is the only thing that matters right. Wrong that is not what God’s Word says. What Driscoll is saying here is the exact opposite of what scripture commands us to do.”

Mark Driscoll, “Now here is how the tribes get built. I have a chart so it looks very official and you feel like you have got your money’s worth at R12 you are welcome alright….”

Chris Rosebrough, “Now it is hard to explain what this chart looks like. Basically take a piece of paper. Fold it in half, one way fold in half, another way so you have got four quadrants and then in you know quadrant one you know you are going to have words and quadrant two you are going to have words and I will explain it as we go…..”

Mark Driscoll, “It is a very fancy chart. There okay. Very fancy chart, we are the second most innovative church in America. If Craig Groeschel did this it would be way fancier. So here is what happens there are four categories of questions. Depending upon how you answer this question it puts you in a tribe, under a tribal leader with a translation of The Bible, going to certain conferences, certain Bible colleges, seminaries. Reading certain books from certain publishing houses. The first is are you Reformed or Arminian?

1.    Reformed?

2.    Arminian?

Some of you will say both you are confused.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Okay now listen to how he defines this. If you were to start in the left top hand corner of the quadrants and right Reformed or Arminian? Put a number one next to Reformed and number two next to Arminian. Okay so these are his four points that he points out. So there is these four quadrants. Listen to his definition of Reformed versus Arminian.”

Mark Driscoll, “Are you Reformed or Arminian? When it comes to salvation that God is the primary agent in salvation or we are the primary agent in salvation. I know I am simplifying it. But I only have 20 minutes.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Okay notice what he said. Reformed God is the primary agent in salvation. Arminian you, we are the primary agent in salvation. Boy the way he describes that, that is not Reformed versus Arminian. Okay that is Monergism versus Pelagianism. That is exactly what he just said and he is just glossing it and you have got to understand this folks.

If you do not understand historically what the Pelagian heresy was you need to go back into the archives of Fighting for the Faith and listen to the lectures by Phil Johnson where he walks through these different heresies. You know with the Judaizing heresy, the Gnostic heresy and he talks about Pelagianism.  Pelagianism has always been a dividing doctrine. Okay it is the difference between orthodoxy versus heresy. If you believe that God is the primary agent in salvation and that He is one who raises us from the dead. That is Monergism. That is the orthodox biblical teaching. If you believe that man is the primary agent in salvation by a decision, then you are denying the doctrine of original sin and that means you are Pelagian.

If you are Pelagian you are a heretic and you are not a Christian. That is historically how this has always been fought and here Driscoll is just glossing this, absolutely glossing it as if, ‘Well listen you know we have got Pelagian brothers and I am going to use that term here because of the way he defined it. We have Pelagian tribal leaders that we need to humbly learn from. No we don’t. Really for real we don’t.”

Mark Driscoll, “Next question is are you Complementarian or Egalitarian?

3. Complementarian?

4. Egalitarian?

When it comes to the governments of church and the home are you a Complementarian who believes that men bear responsibility to lovingly, humbly lead or are you an Egalitarian where you don’t see a necessary distinction in such things as offices like Pastor in the church between men and women?”

Chris Rosebrough, “Okay so now in the second quadrant which is, so it will be top right corner. Number three is Complementarian. Number four is Egalitarian. So Egalitarian would be, ‘Hey you know we have female pastrixes.’ Now yeah I understand that this is not technically a salvation issue. But the Complementarian Egalitarian distinction shows at its core a fundamental misunderstanding and misuse of God’s Word by those who argue for the Egalitarian view and as a result of it within the Missouri Senate it is a dividing factor for us.

We do not ordain women and we are not in fellowship with other Lutheran denominations who ordain women. It is actually a dividing issue. This is not something that is adiaphora?

Why? Because it actually says something about how that body, that church body reads scripture and if they are going to abuse and twist God’s Word in such a way that they can come up with female pastors that is going to then affect and impact how they preach everything including the gospel and I would point you to such denominations as The ECLA and The Episcopal Church in The United States of America as proof positive that objectively that is exactly how this always plays out and by the way the same arguments that those types of churches used to bring in female pastrixes are exactly the same arguments that they used – same verses even to then turn right around and ordain practicing unrepentant homosexuals.

This is not a, ‘oh we take it or leave it issue.’ This is actually a hill worth dying on specifically because somebody who is mishandling God’s Word and twisting it so badly that they come up with the Egalitarian view. This says that they are not capable of teaching sound doctrine anywhere along the line. That is really what it comes down to. We continue…..”

Mark Driscoll, “Number the third category, are you Charismatic or Cessationist? Do you believe that all the spiritual gifts continue into the present day or are you one who thinks that they ceased in the first century, even there is no evidence….”

5.    Charismatic?

6.    Cessationist?

Chris Rosebrough, “He is Charismatic. So bottom left quadrant is number five Charismatic. Number six Cessationist. If you want to write it down.”

Mark Driscoll, “I am on cold medicine. I can get away with murder at this point. So and then the fourth category is are you Missional or Fundamental?

7.    Missional?

8.    Fundamental?

When it comes to the engagement of the church from Christians in culture, are you Missional thinking that the church should contextualize the culture or are you fundamental, which is more just mental.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Notice the swipe and by the way this really should be not Missional versus Fundamental. This should be I would say Seeker Driven versus Traditional. That is really what is going on here and so he has taken the traditional church model which basically says, ‘We have holy things to do at church. We are here for word and sacrament.’

That kind of thing and so you know that is what is going to drive us as opposed to quote what he is calling the Missional model where you basically bring into the church, you know you play secular cover songs and cultural trappings in order to attract people. That is really what he is talking about here and again I don’t think that is adiaphora at all.

Mark Driscoll, “And you think that the church should withdraw from culture because for you when you think of culture, you immediately think of worldliness and that tends to be what happens for those are fundamental. Okay so here is the question before we get going: what tribe….”

Chris Rosebrough, “So notice he is along the way in setting out these definitions, he is taking swipes at those positions he disagrees with.”

Mark Driscoll, “Okay so here is the question before we get going: what tribe are you in? So we are going to, no leave it up. Here is my big point. Don’t take away my chart. Okay so let’s say you are two, four, five.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Okay let me translate here two you are Arminian, but the way he used it. I am going to say you are Pelagian. Four you are Egalitarian which means you do not know how to handle God’s Word and you are five, you are Charismatic. So Pelagian, Egalitarian, and Charismatic…..

2.    Arminian / Pelagian

4.    Egalitarian

5.    Charismatic

Mark Driscoll, “You are just classic Charismatic Pentecostal. Okay and thank you for raising your hands during our singing time. We are very glad to have you.”

Chris Rosebrough, “So is that just another tribe in Christianity? The Pelagian, Monergism distinctive is no longer anything worth dividing over. We can just say, ‘Hey it doesn’t matter what you believe here,’ even though historically the church has said Pelagianism puts you outside the church.”

Mark Driscoll, “Let’s say you are one and three. What tribe are you in?”

Chris Rosebrough, “That would be Reformed Complementarian.

1.    Reformed

3.    Complementarian

Mark Driscoll, “Together for the gospel, okay this one guy yelled. But he didn’t raise his hands during the singing time. Together for the gospel. The Gospel Coalition and that tends to be that category, also I would say Classic Reformed Baptist. How about this one? One, three and five.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Reformed, Complementarian, Charismatic. That would be what Driscoll thinks he is.”

Mark Driscoll, “Reformed, Complementarian, Charismatic.

1.    Reformed

3. Complementarian

5. Charismatic

You are into sovereign grace. You like Wayne Grudem. You like John Piper and you don’t see a lot of converts. But you do.”

Chris Rosebrough, “I take it back. He thinks he is Missional too.”

Mark Driscoll, “I don’t write the mail. I just deliver it.”

Chris Rosebrough, “So if you are Reformed, Complementarian, and Charismatic you don’t see a lot of converts. Notice he puts Piper in the Charismatic category and that is a correct place to put him….”

Mark Driscoll, “That tribe is my tribe and tends to be evangelistically weak. The majority of evangelism in church planting is not happening in our world. But the majority of blog writing and book publishing is. Okay and that is not bad I like books.”

Chris Rosebrough, “That was a swipe, sarcastic swipe, again making a point, but not a difference right.”

Mark Driscoll, “What if you are one, three and seven. You are Reformed Complementarian, and Missional. Well you love Tim Keller and you are more Reformed Missional. But you don’t talk a tonne about the Holy Spirit and so what you talk a lot about is the gospel. The gospel loves. The gospel saves. The gospel transforms. Not apart from the person and work of the Holy Spirit. You tend to attribute a lot of the Holy Spirit’s work to the gospel

2. Pelagian / Arminian

3. Complementarian

5. Charismatic

7. Seeker Driven / Missional

Chris Rosebrough, “Now I want to clear something up here. Scripture is clear here that all scripture is God breathed. Where do we see the primary work of the Holy Spirit? Answer in the preached Word. So you want to hear the Holy Spirit speak? Go somewhere the guy is actually preaching God’s Word in context and proclaiming it. Yeah the Holy Spirit is working because He is attached intimately with His Word.”

Mark Driscoll, “Got you. Okay how about if you are two, three, five, seven and I know maths is hard, so we are not going to make you total it up.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Okay two, three, five and seven. You are Pelagian, Complementarian, Charismatic, Missional.”

2. Pelagian / Arminian

3. Complementarian

5. Charismatic

7. Seeker Driven / Missional

Mark Driscoll, “I know maths is hard, so we are not going to make you total it up. But let’s say you are kind of Arminian, Complementarian, Charismatic, and more Missional. You are probably something like the Calvary movement, and there a few Calvary guys who are Reformed, but for the most part it has not been a Reformed movement. You are more Calvary movement right.

How about this? Let’s say you are two Arminian,”

Chris Rosebrough, “Pelagian, the way he defined it.”

Mark Driscoll, “Five Charismatic and seven Missional, but you are not Reformed and not Complementarian.”

2.    Pelagian / Arminian

4.  Egalitarian

5.  Charismatic

7.  Seeker Driven / Missional

Chris Rosebrough, “That would mean you are Egalitarian. So you are four.”

Mark Driscoll, “Catalyst, Steven Furtick my friend. Perry Noble….”

Chris Rosebrough, “So Steven Furtick Pelagian, Egalitarian, Charismatic, Missional, again Steven Furtick shows that he is incapable of rightly handling God’s Word and yes it touches on the gospel and no it is not something that is secondary. It is primary.”

Mark Driscoll, “Perry Noble my friend and I will say this too. John Piper my friend, Wayne Grudem my friend. Everybody I am talking about that I name is actually a friend of mine. Somebody I really love. I have had meals with. Most of them have met my kids, like they are genuinely godly people that I really love and appreciate.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Now notice the way he is then playing this all out. These differences don’t mean anything. They are not important and yet historically these have been extremely important distinctives. Not according to you know tribal leader Mark Driscoll. Yeah we need to well how did he put it again?

‘Be humble enough to learn from other tribal leaders to see if there is a way to introduce more people to Jesus. So these distinctions that he is pointing out here. It doesn’t mean anything. So what is this? Well oddly enough this is postmodern. Truth doesn’t transcend a community or tribe. It doesn’t so we can talk about how you know we can humbly learn from the tribal leaders, even from tribal leaders whose tribe teaches rank heresy. Heresy that the church has always historically said is heresy.

We need to just humble ourselves. It doesn’t matter if they twist God’s Word. It doesn’t matter if they ordain women. None of that matters. We need to humbly figure out a way to learn from these other tribal leaders, so that we can introduce more people to Jesus. Well the reality is this is that if somebody is going to a church that that teaches rank heresy they are not being introduced to the biblical Jesus. They are not being introduced or they are not hearing the biblical gospel and even if they accidentally hear the biblical gospel, they are being discipled not in sound doctrine – but in false doctrine.

You see again my point is this is that every single church actually is duty bound to teach the exact same doctrine. Because its source is God’s Word. That is the reality regarding what we confess when we say, ‘We believe in one holy catholic universal and apostolic church. We believe in the faith once for all delivered to the Saints.’

If we are going to have real unity we are going to have to roll up our sleeves and do the tough work of slogging through these passages and finding out what is causing these differences. Because the reality is sound doctrine we are commanded by Christ in His Word to teach it and to rebuke those who contradict it.

Which means that it is capable of being known and believed and confessed and where there is differences, often times what you are going to find is those differences are the result of a person who basically brought people along who are speaking twisted things and drew away disciples after themselves rather than Christ. But we continue…..”

Mark Driscoll, “So I wouldn’t pick on someone unless I really love them. That is my love language. It is picking on people so and so if you go to something like a Catalyst event, that tends to be that crowd and world class leaders like Craig Groeschel and like Andy Stanley. How about this? Let’s say you are two, three, six and eight. So you are Arminian….”

Chris Rosebrough, “Pelagian…..”

Mark Driscoll, “Complementarian, Cessationist, fundamental.

2. Pelagian / Arminian

3. Complementarian

6. Cessationist

8. Fundamental / Traditional

And that is just not a fun group right like that is just no fun. It is no fun. That is Fundamental Baptist. Right which you are welcome. Both of you we were wondering who rode the horse and it is awesome to have you. You know because cars aren’t in The Bible so just…..what if you are seven you are just seven. You are Emergent / apostate. Right….

     7. Seeker Driven / Missional

Chris Rosebrough, “He has no problem calling his old Emergent buddies who he worked intimately work back in the 90s and the early part of the 2000s as apostates. He has no problem with that. Interesting……”

Mark Driscoll, “No you are I mean you just are. I didn’t name any names yet and so here is where The Resurgence is at and Mars Hill and Acts29. One, three, five, seven

          1. Reformed

          3. Complementarian

          5. Charismatic

          7. Seeker Driven / Missional

Just like Jesus. That is where we are at. So what tribe are you in? Do you see this? Is this helpful? You are welcome…..”

Chris Rosebrough, “The question is what is the truth that transcends all these tribes that all of us are bound to believe, teach and confess? He is denying that through this presentation. Basically sweeping it under the rug, glossing over it, as if it doesn’t matter….”

Mark Driscoll, “What tribe are you in and what tends to happen is rather than learning from other tribes we criticize other tribes and rather than working with other tribes for the sake of people meeting Jesus, which I am going to say….”

Chris Rosebrough, “How am I supposed to work with a heretic to help people meet Jesus? How am I supposed to learn from and work with somebody who every time he opens The Bible, twists it to say things that it doesn’t say so that I can help people to meet Jesus? How an earth can somebody meaningfully meet Jesus from a false teacher who is twisting God’s Word or teaches rank heresy? It can’t be done. Scripture doesn’t say to do that. It is says to do the opposite of what you are saying. Whom I to believe here, the apostle Paul or tribal leader Mark Driscoll?

Mark Driscoll, “What tribe are you in and what tends to happen is rather than learning from other tribes we criticize other tribes and rather than working with other tribes for the sake of people meeting Jesus, which I am going to say above all is the most important thing, it is the most important thing. What tends to happen then is we become so tribalized that we no longer evangelize, we become so tribalized that we no longer evangelize and so I would ask you….”

Chris Rosebrough, “Oh no so if you are tribal you don’t evangelize, which by the way is complete malarkey….”

Mark Driscoll, “Is your tribe a home or a prison? If it is a prison you can’t leave. You can’t read another book, go to another conference, work with another ministry leader. It is a prison or is your tribe a home, a home from which you can go visit other tribes and learn from them.

Meet the greater family of God and if so then you will have an opportunity not only to improve your tribe. You know if your tribe is only home grown and inbred, if you only read the books and sing the songs and listen to the teachers that completely already agree with you – you are going to be inbred.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Oh again just listen to the apostle Paul. Okay an overseer in the church….

             Titus 1 v 9-14 (ESV – English Standard Version)

He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.

10 For there are many who are insubordinate, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision party. 11 They must be silenced, since they are upsetting whole families by teaching for shameful gain what they ought not to teach. 12 One of the Cretans, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” 13 This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, 14 not devoting themselves to Jewish myths and the commands of people who turn away from the truth.

So again who are you going to believe? Are you going to believe Mark Driscoll? What do I as a Christian as somebody who holds to sound biblical doctrine, who believes in the inerrancy of scripture and the importance of sound doctrine and rightly handling God’s Word. What do I have to learn from Rick Warren? I don’t think I have anything to learn from him. He has got nothing to say to me until he repents and shows that he is able to rightly handle God’s Word.

What do I have to learn from Joel Osteen? Nothing absolutely nothing, reading his books is absolutely grinding on my mind and my soul and the only reason I have ever done it is because I have to actually for my vocation warn people about that false teacher. What do I have to learn from T.D. Jakes and his books? Not a thing.

I would rather spend my money on good solid theological books that I know are from men who have shown that they are capable of rightly handling God’s Word. But not only that, but have handled it in such a way that they are able to push me even deeper into God’s Word and expand my understanding of what it says. There isn’t a false teacher on the planet, regardless of whether or not he is a tribal leader or not who is capable of helping me understand God’s Word on a deeper level.

Because they don’t rightly handle God’s Word and they teach for shameful gain the things the things they ought not to teach…..

Titus 1 v 11 (ESV – English Standard Version)                 

….11By teaching for shameful gain what they ought not to teach…..

….and again notice the way Driscoll is talking T.D. Jakes buddy of his, friend of his and you know he is a tribal leader. We can learn something from him. Rick Warren same thing, same thing with Steven Furtick, I don’t think so. I really don’t think so. This is against what the scripture says….”

Mark Driscoll, “You are going to end up theologically unhealthy and you are going to have a movement that is really not going to have a long lifespan.”

Chris Rosebrough, “So it is unhealthy for you to only read books that teach you sound biblical theology….”

Mark Driscoll, “You are going to end up theologically unhealthy and you are going to have a movement that is really not going to have a long lifespan and so we want….”

Chris Rosebrough, “Yeah so orthodoxy you know is not going to have a long lifespan.”

Mark Driscoll, “And so we want you to not only have a healthier tribe. But we want your tribe to be part of the greater kingdom of God.”

Chris Rosebrough, “So a healthier tribe is one that lays aside their differences and humbly learns from other tribal leaders regardless of whether or not they are heretics to see if there is a way to introduce more people to Jesus. That is Driscoll’s definition, not God’s.”

Mark Driscoll, “And to see people meet the Lord Jesus Christ and let me submit to you that we are in a time where tribalizing is not helpful, that as we fight over secondary issues there are primary issues that really need attention….”

Chris Rosebrough, “Sound doctrine is not a secondary issue. The difference between Monergism and Pelagianism is not a secondary issue. It is a primary issue. The difference in how you handle God’s Word where either you affirm what God’s Word teaches regarding Complementarianism versus Egalitarianism is not secondary. It actually addresses such primary issues that the church body that I am a part of isn’t even in communion and alter pulpit fellowship with those who allow women to be pastors. That is how important it is….”

Mark Driscoll, “When it comes to things like sexual practices and definitions of marriage and those kinds of things. The real question is do we any longer have the right to call people to repentance? That is really the issue.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Yeah but repentance isn’t just regarding immoral behaviour. Repentance primarily has to do with idolatry, false theology, false gods. You see when you have sound biblical theology, you not only have the authority to call people to repentance who are engaging in sins of the flesh, but you also have the authority to call people to repentance who are engaging in sins against the first table of the Law to love your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength.

Because false doctrine is a breaking of those commandments, blaspheming God’s name and things like that. So it is not just sexual immorality that we need to have the authority to call people to repentance. It is also false doctrine which is why again the apostle Paul says, ‘Teach what is in accord with sound doctrine and rebuke those who contradict it.’ Rebuking to call them to repent so that they may teach sound doctrine, that is what the passage says. But here this entire presentation by Mark Driscoll is glossing over all of that.”

Mark Driscoll, “That is really the issue in our day of pluralism, in our day of tolerance and diversity, in our day of universalism and multiple ways of salvation and sexual orientations and practices and all kinds of issues that Christians are struggling with and straining toward. The question is do we have the right to call people to repentance? If we lose the right to call people to repentance we cease being Christian.”

Chris Rosebrough, “And notice here. I want to point this out. You want to know why Driscoll has gone this way? Because of his participation at The Elephant Room 2, where he basically said sound theology, especially when it comes to the doctrine of the Trinity is not important. He has lost the authority to call anybody to repent doctrinally. That is why he is glossing this over.

This is a direct result of his rebellion against God’s Word regarding sound biblical theology and the crime that he committed with James MacDonald at The Elephant Room 2. Driscoll has lost the authority to call people to repentance who teach false doctrine. Because he has gone ahead and shaken hands with false doctrine. He has hugged false doctrine. He has prayed with false doctrine. He has told other Christians false doctrine doesn’t matter. That is why he is where he is…..”

Mark Driscoll, “And so let me submit to you that the most important thing is that people be called to repentance of sin and faith in Jesus Christ for the salvation of their soul and that is what is primary. That is what is essential. Everything else….”

Chris Rosebrough, “Yeah but just because it is primary, doesn’t mean that it is the only thing. This is a huge error….”

Mark Driscoll, “It may be important but it is secondary amen?”

Chris Rosebrough, “No sound doctrine is not secondary, it is primary….”

Mark Driscoll, “It is secondary to calling people to repentance and faith in Jesus Christ.”

Chris Rosebrough, “So there you go that was Drisoll’s presentation and again I apologise for the length of today’s episode of Fighting for the Faith. But I really believe it was necessary to take the time to flesh all this out, so you can really see what is going on here and what we are dealing with folks is an ideology.

This is an ideology that Warren, Driscoll, and Stanley have in common, an ideology that basically says sound theology doesn’t matter. Truth is in the tribes and we just need to lay aside the tribal differences so that we can supposedly just introduce more people to Jesus. It is all about the evangelism. That is the important thing. But it doesn’t make any sense when you actually take the time to think critically and biblically about what it is that they are saying and what it is that they are doing.

God’s Word does not relegate the importance of sound doctrine and a right handling of scripture to a secondary or tertiary place in the church. It is primary, so primary that a person can’t even be a pastor unless he can teach sound doctrine and has the gumption to rebuke those who contradict it.

Alright we are up on our second break. If you would like to email me regarding anything you have heard on this edition or any previous editions of Fighting for the Faith you can do so my email address is talkback@fightingforthefaith.com or you can subscribe on Facebook www.facebook.com/piratechristian or you can follow me on Twitter. My name there is @piratechristian.

Fighting for the Faith With Chris Rosebrough – Rick Warren Recommends you Follow the top Heretics in the World

Below is a transcript taken from Chris Rosebrough’s radio show podcast Fighting For The Faith Radio podcast which was originally broadcast on Friday May 31st 2013, which you can subscribe to iTunes. I highly recommend you do this if you want to develop discernment.  

[Segment – 00:02:40 – 00:37:47]

Here is the video link for this transcript > http://youtu.be/ylHG7orkXto

Chris Rosebrough, “Now I want you to think back with me for a little bit here. I want to do a little bit of kind of a I want to ruminate, is that the right word? I want to kind of wonder through a little bit of recent history with you all and see if I can jog your memory. Because certain things are happening again in the church that I have seen this pattern before. Think back if you would to the early part of 2000s you know maybe 2002 / 2003 / 2004 kind of you know. You get what I am saying.

And back then you know most of us had never really heard much about Rick Warren. We knew that he was the pastor of Saddleback. We know that maybe our pastors read the book called The Purpose Driven Church and you know things like that. But most of us weren’t all that exposed to Rick Warren.

Didn’t really know that much about him and then he writes the book The Purpose Driven Life and it explodes onto the scene like Gangbusters and of course you read the book and you know somebody like me who is trained in theology, Christian Apologetics, as well as Counter Cult ministries. Immediately my radar is going off and I am you know I am getting red flags all over the places as I am reading the book. Why is he mishandling God’s Word in this way?

This is horrible. This is not right and then you know shortly after that you know kind of walking through a little bit of my history and my first initial exposure to Rick Warren. Back in the day I used to teach at Capo Valley Church in San Juan Capistrano, California and the head pastor’s there decided that as a church we were going to do a forty days campaign, not the forty days of purpose.

But we decided to do the forty days of community and because I was teaching there and I was a director of Adult Education at the church at the time. I you know was tapped on the shoulder and asked if I would lead a small group Bible Study on top of the class that I already taught on Sunday’s there and I said, ‘Sure no problem,’ and you know I basically asked that the question, ‘Well what do I need to do to prepare in order to teach this small group study?’

They said, ‘You don’t need to prepare anything Chris. Here is the book that it has the questions that you can ask you know for the study and here is the DVD for week one. Just pop it into the DVD player and hit play and then pause it at the appropriate points and ask the appropriate study questions. I am thinking, ‘Okay no problem. I mean pretty simple stuff.’

Apparently you know this is a pre made dinner, it is kind of like TV dinner version of a Bible Study, all you have got to do is stick it in a microwave and hit you know, hit the on button. Let it cook itself and then it is ready to serve. I thought that was great. So got to the Bible Study popped in the DVD, hit play and you know well I was like a minute and a half two minutes into the opening statements made by Rick Warren and the forty days of community and I had to hit the pause button and say, ‘I am really sorry folks what Rick Warren just said there is not what The Bible says. If you would open up your Bible’s to such and such a passage, let’s take a look at what God’s Word says.

I am sure Rick he you know wasn’t purposely intending to twist God’s Word, but I think it is important that I clean things up here. Because I am not going to allow people under my teaching to be taught false doctrine, you know even if it comes pre packaged by Rick Warren and I hit play again and you know you get another minute or so into it and next thing you know I had to hit the pause.

This kind of the early version of a Fighting for the Faith sermon review and I said, ‘Oh I am, again I don’t mean to sound persnickety, but what Rick Warren said there doesn’t jibe with God’s Word.’ And so there was my kind of first exposures to Rick Warren and I knew where there is smoke, there is fire and I knew there was trouble. But then here is the problem.

You know to the general to the American evangelical church goer you know they will say, ‘Well listen Rick Warren is one of the most prominent leaders within Southern Baptist Convention. He is one of the most, I mean he is an author of a New York Times bestselling book.

I mean there hasn’t been a work of nonfiction that has sold as well as The Purpose Driven Life in the history of publishing right. And so you know what he says can’t be wrong and look at you know he is having such a positive impact on you know what is going on in the church. How can you say what he is teaching is false? It is real simple, I have my Bible open and I know how to read it in context and I teach other people to do the same and what he is saying isn’t squaring with scripture and then you have got all the weird things that were happening after that.

You know kind of take you back in time. Do you remember the story where it came out? Purpose Driven Mormons question mark? You know Rick Warren had to defend himself against the fact that he you know was attending The Purpose Driven Conferences that he was holding at Saddleback. There was you know apparently a story of some Mormons who showed up to want to do, learn how to do Purpose Driven Mormonism and you know created a kafuffle and then you have the whole synagogue 2000 thing.

You know where Rick Warren was teaching at a Jewish synagogue, teaching them how to be Purpose Driven and then you have his appearances you know with different Muslim groups and then signing onto the common word between us and then you know his endorsement of Dan Kimball’s book The Emerging Church, along you know and he actually co-authored the book The Emerging Church with Brian McLaren as well as Dan Kimball and you just go down the line and you ask yourself the question if Rick Warren is really an orthodox guy, if Rick Warren is really a leader who truly is somebody whom we can listen to their teaching and be edified by because they rightly handle God’s Word, then why all the noise and distortion on the other end of the spectrum. What is going on here?

Something is amiss, something is askew. It is as if he is speaking out of both sides of his mouth. People say, ‘Well he is orthodox. Look at the you know,’ and I remember of course his apologist Richard Abonist taking me to task on my own blog at the time, you know where I was taking Rick Warren to task and then of course I asked and ended up having several email exchanges with the some of the major leaders over at Saddleback Church regarding the things that he was saying publically.

And then Rick Warren invited me to a Purpose Driven Community Conference. I was his guest there for a few days and then afterwards I was able to meet with him, me and Bob Derway met with him for a good hour and a half and I was able to tell him to his face the things that I was concerned about what he was doing and the things that he you know and the impact it was having on the church.

Obviously it didn’t produce any fruit. I think the expectation he had is that after I found out what a nice guy he is and how smart he is, that I would cut him some slack. Well that is not what ended up happening. But the point and then you know and then last year we had the whole thing where you had the Kingsway document which was you know basically co-authored by one of the pastors at Saddleback Church with a Muslim in a mosque in Los Angeles and this Kingsway document, the Orange County register reporter who initially reported on it.

The way he read it was that you know this Kingsway document was trying to basically say that Muslims and Christians worship the same God and of course you know the folks at Saddleback went into spin control and denied all of that and so then there was a follow up article last year where you know the reporter ended up publishing large segments of the Kingsway document to say, ‘Listen I wasn’t making this up. Here is the document itself. Here is portions of it and he got permission to publish portions of it from the Muslim who co-authored the piece with one of the pastors at Saddleback.

So here is the idea is that something is wrong. Something is wrong in the sense that on the one hand you have men like Rick Warren and I would even argue men like James MacDonald, men like Mark Driscoll, men like Andy Stanley who basically hide behind their orthodox statement of faith on their websites.

But then they say and do things that are contrary to those orthodox statements of faith and when they are caught well those things that they said are dead. They have miraculously disappear. Whoosh they are gone and this has been a constant story with Rick Warren. Okay and we had an example of that happen last night and by the way last night was a terrible night for me.

I was suffering from some you know major stomach bug and was nauseous most of the night and practically delirious and it didn’t start to clear up until I finally gave in at four in the morning and decided to just go ahead and hurl and yeah I shouldn’t have to share all that with you.

But anyway last night you know I was kind of out of the fight and Rick Warren on his Facebook page literally posted a recommended follow list of ‘The Top 100 Pastors You Should Be Following,’ and it reads like a whose who of Heretic’s and yeah I mean there is some good guys in the list.

But I am going to talk about that shortly and kind of roll it up into this general how do I put it? This general thing that I have been observing now for the more than a decade and that is that in the seeker driven movement.

The primary leaders feign or give lip service to orthodoxy while their actions and the things they are doing when they think that critics or haters or bloggers are not exactly watching that the things they say contradict that and in some cases they have to do it out in the open and take the hit and let the controversy roll.

But that is generally not their MO and when they are caught, often times the evidence disappears. The same thing happened with Andy Stanley. Remember the Andy Stanley segment we did? Was it yesterday or the day before where he cleverly denies the inerrancy of scripture or you know openly attacks it.

Well that video disappeared. It is gone. Well thankfully I have a backup copy because the one thing I have learned over the years in dealing with the seeker driven leadership, especially those higher up is when they accidentally stick their foot in their mouth, you need to make sure you keep the evidence. Because when it gets out into the general blogosphere what they have done is contrary to scripture. The evidence disappears.

So the Rick Warren thing that he posted last night it was only up for a few hours before it whoosh disappeared, and thankfully some people made copies of it and what he said so that I can report on it today. The Andy Stanley thing I am going to basically come back and re examine it in light of a clarification that Andy Stanley made on Denny Burk’s blog which I think well doesn’t actually help the case.

And then we are going to spend a large amount of time listening to a segment that I have been patiently waiting for the right time to bring here to Fighting for the Faith and it is Mark Driscoll’s four points of evangelicalism.

There was a twenty minute video that he posted a couple of weeks ago on YouTube from The Resurgence Conference last October, which was held in Orange County and in there Driscoll does not realise just how badly he puts his foot in his mouth in this video. When you take the time to examine it critically to examine what he says biblically. What he says is so far astride of what the scriptures really teach regarding the importance of sound doctrine.

That we have got some major problems and it kind of gets on the sub point that I want to talk about here and that is that how what kind of worldview, what kind of theological worldview makes it possible for you to believe that this church where the pastor teaches rank heresy is still part of the body of Christ and this church over here where the pastor is practically you know the next iteration of Benny Hinn is also part of the body of Christ.

Well there is an answer to the question and that is it is an irrational postmodern worldview which by the way post maternity has its philosophical roots in twentieth century fascism. Go back and listen to my lecture Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated into the community from May 11th 2012. That is the episode of Fighting for the Faith. If you are not sure what I am talking about.

If you are new to the programme and you haven’t listened to that lecture. You need to pause right here and go listen to that. But we are going to address that and it comes in the form of this talk about tribes. ‘Well my tribe, my tribe.’

We have got a problem here and that is that we are not dealing with people you know major leaders who actually firmly hold to what scripture says that all truth is transcendent and that every congregation is actually biblically and duty bound to believe, teach and confess the same doctrine. I know that sounds crazy. But it is true. That is and we are at the opposite of that is what we are getting in these major seeker driven leaders. So we have got some major problems that we are going to be addressing in you know the first half of this programme.

So we have got a lot of ground to cover I recommend that you make yourself comfortable. If you have the ability to take notes today that might help. Although I am not exactly following a clear outline. You should see the mess that is my notes for this programme. But this is one of those programmes where you know I am not going to be screaming and yelling and you know anything like that.

But what I am saying here, it gets to the nub of the problem as to what we are dealing with men like again Rick Warren, Andy Stanley, Mark Driscoll, James MacDonald and others who are these de facto tribal leaders who are working against what scripture commands regarding sound biblical theology and methodology and in so….anyway with that we are going to dive into the programme and proper and we are going to start off with our Rick Warren update, which requires me to do this.

[Plays music song]

Purpose by John Tartaglia

Purpose.
It keeps you going strong
Like a car with a full
Tank of gas.

Everyone else has a purpose,
So what’s mine?

Oh look.
Here’s a penny.
It’s from the year I was born.

It’s a sign!

Ha! Ba ba ba ba doo doo doo doo doo.

I don’t know how I know,
But I’m gonna find my purpose.
I don’t know where I’m gonna look,
But I’m gonna find my purpose.

Gotta find out.
Don’t wanna wait.
Got to make sure that my life will be great.
Gotta find my purpose.
Before it’s too late…..

Chris Rosebrough, “Yeah that is right. That is our Rick Warren update music and you know this is the first real Rick Warren update that we have done. Since the horrific and terrible news hit, you know that basically the news wire is that Rick Warren’s son had committed suicide and I purposely kind of avoided doing any Rick Warren updates just to give him time to grieve and you know so as I you know think that is the Christian thing to do. But enough time has now passed and Rick Warren has done something very dangerous that I am glad that he took it down.

But again the fact that he even put this up shows the problem and over and over again when Rick Warren does these types of things Christians who know their Bible call him out on it and then the offending thing that he has done disappears. But the fact that he does these things, shows there is something extremely wrong with Rick Warren’s theology and worldview and again my goal today is to kind of flesh that out and help you see it for what it is.

So as we work through this first hour of the programme today and it will go a little bit long. Keep in mind that this segment on Rick Warren, the next segment on Andy Stanley and then the next segment on Mark Driscoll. They are all really one unit. They work together and I am trying to help you to see something that I see. Does that make sense? So you can find this by the way, you can find what Rick Warren said at the Stand up for the Truth website – standupforthetruth.com.

Amy Spreeman who is a radio talk show host up there in Wisconsin. She was adjourning on the spot. Found you know somebody alerted her to this, she got right on it. Copied exactly verbatim everything that was on this post on Rick Warren’s Facebook wall and it was only up for a few hours before it was pulled and according to Amy. We had a little email correspondence.

According to Amy the statements, the comments that were being made on Rick Warren’s wall were very telling. But let me tell you so here is the name of the post by the way. It is stand up for the truth. It is Rick Warren’s Top 100 Pastors to Follow. Here is what she says. Here is the exact post. But you can also follow the link above which by the way is now a dead link to see the strange conversation happening at Rick Warren’s Facebook page. So here is the status update by Rick Warren. So it was posted by Rick Warren and Rick Warren said quote…..

Rick Warren, “I encourage you to follow these senior pastors on Twitter.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Again it is the Facebook status. Began with Rick Warren saying, ‘I encourage you to follow these senior pastors on Twitter’ and the senior pastors are organized based upon the number of followers they have on Twitter…..

Over 1,000,000

1. Joel Osteen @JoelOsteen 1,708,237 Lakewood

So number one Rick Warren wants you to follow Joel Osteen.”

2. Rick Warren @RickWarren 1,045,879 Saddleback

Of course Rick Warren is number two so he wants you to follow him as well.

3. T.D. Jakes @BishopJakes 1,032,990 Potter’s House

Rick Warren also wants you to follow T.D. Jakes on Twitter. By the way T.D. Jakes still is not orthodox. I don’t consider him a Christian brother at all. There is no such thing as a Trinitarian Modalist and what happened at The Elephant Room 2 was an absolute abortion. I apologise for the term. It was an abortion of sound biblical theology and what should have happened.

Other people that Rick Warren said basically said people need to follow.

Over 600,000
4. Marcos Witt @MarcosWitt 602,194 Lakewood Hispanic

Over 300,000
5. Mark Driscoll @PastorMark 381,326 Mars Hill
6. Louie Giglio @LouieGiglio 363,979 Passion City                                                                                    

7. Cash Luna @PastorCashLuna 350,674 Casa De Dios

Guy by the name of Cash Luna. Now this is somebody you probably are unaware of, Cash Luna is a Spanish speaking televangelist who is of the same kind of ilk as Benny Hinn. You know miracles, people shaking and falling down on stage and stuff like that. Cash Luna is as heretical if not more heretical than Benny Hinn. The reason why we don’t cover him here is well because I don’t speak Spanish. But the people who I am in contact with you know in the Hispanic speaking community. This guy is very dangerous and he is a young good looking kid. So he has got years and years to spread his heresy.

That Rick would just say, ‘Hey you need to follow Cash Luna,’ is just ridiculous.

Over 200,000
8. Andy Stanley @AndyStanley 291,437 Northpoint                                                                                                                        

9. Brian Houston @BrianCHouston 267,970 Hillsong

More on the list Brian Houston. Yeah we need to follow Brian Houston as badly as we need a whole in our heads.

10.Judah Smith @JudahSmith 233,400 City
11.Matt Chandler @MattChandler74 215,357 Village
12. Matthew Barnett @MatthewBarnett 202,436 Dream Center

Over 100,000
13. David Platt @PlattDavid 195,246 Brook Hills
14. Steven Furtick @StevenFurtick 160,477 Elevation

Steven Furtick, Ed Young, Joseph Prince.

15. Craig Groeschel @CraigGroeschel 155,636 LifeChurch
16. Ed Young @EdYoung 154,001 Fellowship
17. Joseph Prince @JosephPrince 151,898 New Creation                                                                                       

18. Bill Hybels @BillHybels 147,181 Willow Creek                                                                                                                           19. David Evans @DavidGEvans1 135,520 Bethany                                                                                                                      

20. Noel Jones @BishopNoelJones 129,663 City of Refuge                                                                                                            

21. Troy Gramling @TroyGramling 125,245 Potential

Troy Gramling. Rick Warren literally said Pastors you should follow on Twitter include Troy Gramling. Troy Gramling has no clue what The Bible actually says. Every single time we review a Troy Gramling sermon it is literally like watching a train wreck in slow motion. The guy could not exegete his way correctly out of a paper bag, if I gave him a flash light and a map – he couldn’t pull it off and yet Rick Warren wants us to follow Troy Gramling.

22. Philip Mantofa @philipmantofa 124,354 Mawar Sharon
23. Timothy Dolan @CardinalDolan 122,326 St. Patrick’s
24. Pete Wilson @pwilson 120,295 Crosspoint
25. Jentezen Franklin @JentezenFranklin 120,286 Free Chapel

Jentezen Franklin, Pete Wilson.

26. Ron Edmondson @RonEdmondson 105,720 Immanuel
Over 50,000
27. Perry Noble @PerryNoble 91,403 New Spring

Perry Noble, Bill Johnson.

28. Charles Stanley @InTouchMin 91,177 First Baptist
29. Bill Johnson @BillJohnsonBJM 89,752 Bethel

Bill Johnson of Bethel up in Reading. Okay Bill Johnson is in the same camp as people like Patricia King and the ihoff folks and Rick Warren is saying you need to follow this person on Twitter.

30. James MacDonald @JamesMacdonald 76,500 Harvest Bible
31. Charles Blake @BishopCEBlake 73,195 West Angeles
32. Joshua Harris @HarrisJosh 72,453 Covenant Life
33. Nicky Gumbel @NickyGumbel 70,110 Holy Trinity Brompton                                                     

34. Mark Batterson @MarkBatterson 68,660 National Community

You need to follow Mark Batterson according to Rick Warren.

35. Tony Evans @DrTonyEvans 64,494 Oak Cliff Bible
36. Tullian Tchividjian @PastorTullian 62,724 Coral Ridge
37. Greg Laurie @GregLaurie 61,924 Harvest
38. David Crank @DavidCrank 57,534 Faith

You need to follow David Crank. Erwin McManus, Robert Morris.

39. Chuck Swindoll @ChuckSwindoll 55,147 Stonebriar
40. Erwin McManus @ErwinMcmanus 52,784 Mosaic

Over 10,000
41. Chris Hill @PastorChrisHill 46,949 Potter’s House
42. Robert Morris @PsRobertMorris 45,608 Gateway
43. Charles Jenkins @CharlesJenkins 42,823 Fellowship Missionary
44. David Jeremiah @DavidJeremiah 42,392 Shadow Mountain
45. Albert Cutie @PadreAlberto 42,208 Ch. Of Resurrection
46. Chris Hodges @Chris_Hodges 38,810 Ch of the Highlands
47. Casey Treat @CaseyTreat 37,174 Christian Faith Center
48. Tim Keller @TimKellernyc 36,914 Redeemer
49. Mark Dever @MarkDever 36,294 Capitol Hill
50. Bobby Minor @BobbyMinor 34,464 Courageous Church
51. Darrin Patrick @DarrinPatrick 32,716 The Journey
52. Miles McPherson @MilesMcpherson 32,691 Rock
53. David Anderson @AndersonSpeaks 32,643 Bridgeway
54. J.D. Greear @JDGreear 32,219 Summit
55. Jeffrey Rachmat @JeffreyRachmat 31,805 Jakarta Praise
56. Matt Carter @_Matt_Carter 28,896 Austin Stone
57. David Nasser @DavidNasser 28,676 Christ City
58. Jud Wilhite @JudWihite 28,296 Central Christian
59. Kevin DeYoung @RevKevDeYoung 27,493 University Reformed
60. Johnny Hunt @JohnnymHunt 25,565 First Baptist
61. Tommy Barnett @Tommy Barnett 25,449 First Assembly
62. Stovall Weems @StovallWeems 24,531 Celebration
63. Sergio De La Mora @PastorSergio 24,114 Cornerstone
64. Greg Surratt @GregSurratt 23,813 Seacoast
65. Joel A’Bell @Joelsbell 23,432 Hillsong
66. Ron Carpenter @RonCarpenter 23,151 Redemption Outreach
67. Jonathan Falwell @JonathanFalwell 22,853 Thomas Road
68. Willie George @Willie_George 21,240 Church on the Move
69. Kerry Shook @KerryShook 20,940 Woodlands
70. Jack Graham @JacknGraham 20,293 Prestonwood
71. Derek Dunn @CyberDerek 20,156 City Harvest, Irvine
72. Ligon Duncan @LigonDuncan 19,949 First Presbyterian
73. Rudolph McKissick Jr @BishopMckJr 19,441 Bethel Baptist
74. Rich Wilkerson @RichWilkerson 19,131 Trinity
75. Dan Kimball @DanKimball 18,816 Vintage Faith Church
76. Phil Munsey @PhilMunsey 18,587 Life Church
77. Jared Wilson @JaredcWilson 18,518 Middletown Springs
78. Eric Mason @PastorEMase 18,185 Epiphany Fellowship
79. Brandon Hatmaker @BrandonHatmaker 17,836 Austin New
80. Matthew Ashimolowo @KICCLondon 17,756 Kingsway
81. Gary Clark @GaryJamesClarke 16,772 Hillsong, London
82. Burk Parsons @BurkParsons 16,707 St. Andrew’s
83. Rick Bezet @Rick_Bezet 16,422 New Life
84. Britt Merrick @BrittMerrick 15,912 Reality
85. Douglas Wilson @DouglasWils 14,126 Christ Church
86. Matt Fry @MattFry 13,182 C3 Church
87. Ray Ortlund @rayortlund 12,780 Immanuel
88. Jonathan Stockstill @Jon_Stockstill 12,266 Bethany World
89. Brady Boyd @PastorBrady 12,187 New Life
90. John Francis @BishopJFrancis 12,174 Ruach City
91. Bruce Frank @BruceFrank1 11,913 Biltmore
92. Joe Champion @JoeChampion 11,509 Celebration
93. Joey Bonifacio @JoeyBonifacio 11,414 Victory Fort
94. Thabiti Anyabwile @ThabitiAnyabwil 11,022 First Baptist
95. Bob Roberts Jr. @BobRobertsjr 10,890 NorthWood
96. Andreas Nielsen @AndresNielsen 10,745 Hillsong Stockholm
97. Ronnie Floyd @RonnieFloyd 10,722 Cross Church
98. Greg Locke @PastorLocke 10,450 Global Vision Bible
99. Ray McCauley @PsRayMcCauley 10,327 Rhema Bible
100. Dave Stone @DaveStone920 9,462 Southeast Christian

And the list goes on and on. It practically reads like a whose who of the most prominent Bible twisters and heretics on the planet today and Rick Warren began his post with again. This is a direct quote, ‘I encourage you to follow these Senior Pastors on Twitter.’ Now why if Rick Warren is truly orthodox, if Rick Warren is somebody truly believes, teaches and confesses what scripture says, especially as in regards to the importance of sound biblical doctrine and the importance not having fellowship with and promoting false teachers.

Why would he send out a Facebook status encouraging you to follow T.D. Jakes, Joel Osteen, you know Cash Luna and other heretics. Why? Answer because Rick Warren really doesn’t believe what scripture says regarding the importance of sound doctrine and the dangers of false teachers. He has a different ideology and the ideology he shares is the same ideology shared by Andy Stanley and I would even argue Mark Driscoll and James MacDonald and others. He does not hold the biblical theological view here. He holds a different view.

Now let me remind you what scripture says we ought to do regarding false teachers. Romans 16 v 17-18, here is what it says. Paul writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit says…..

Romans 16 v 17-18 (ESV – English Standard Version)

17 I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them.

Okay another translation says mark them, avoid them. Okay so I am going to read a little bit more of this. Now I want to point something out. This passage is misused often when and the way it is misused is when this verse is being used against those who are warning people about false teachers. What will happen is that a person will say, ‘Well listen it says here I am supposed to avoid those who are causing divisions and you are causing divisions by pointing out that this guy is a false teacher.” Again read it in context. Here is what it says….

Romans 16 v 17-18 (ESV – English Standard Version)

17 I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them. 18 For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive.

By smooth talk and flattery the deceive the hearts of naïve. Now here is the deal. Rick Warren if he is truly a Christian, if he is truly a Christian pastor is duty bound by scripture to obey this command, to mark and avoid those who teach doctrine contrary to sound doctrine. Right sound biblical doctrine. You want to know what that is it is right there in scripture. But he doesn’t do that. Yesterday he literally sent out a Facebook status encouraging people to follow some of the most notorious heretics in the church today.

Let me read to you another passage. Okay 2 John, this is a letter written by the apostle John to the elect lady. This is more than likely a woman who was a benefactor if you were to think of it that way, where and there was a church that met in her home. Keep in mind you know in the first century there weren’t church buildings like we have now.

The church was persecuted and for them to have a church building you know down at the local corner. It just makes them a target, so often times you know Christians would meet in secret or they would meet in people’s homes or under extreme circumstances they would meet in catacombs and you know and off places so as not to draw attention to themselves. So this letter is written to a woman who has a church that meets in her home. Okay here is what it says.

2 John 1 v 1-4 (ESV – English Standard Version)

The elder to the elect lady and her children, whom I love in truth, and not only I, but also all who know the truth, because of the truth that abides in us and will be with us forever:

Grace, mercy, and peace will be with us, from God the Father and from Jesus Christ the Father’s Son, in truth and love.

I rejoiced greatly to find some of your children walking in the truth, just as we were commanded by the Father. And now I ask you, dear lady—not as though I were writing you a new commandment, but the one we have had from the beginning—that we love one another.

So here is the command, we have all heard it before. Love one another.

2 John 1 v 6-10 (ESV – English Standard Version)

And this is love, that we walk according to his commandments; this is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, so that you should walk in it.

So here is the deal you walk in the truth. Walk in love.

            2 John 1 v 7-10 (ESV – English Standard Version)

For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist. Watch yourselves, so that you may not lose what we have worked for, but may win a full reward. Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house…..[Which would be the church. Don’t receive him into the church] or give him any greeting,11 for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.

So here we have Rick Warren on his Facebook page, who Rick Warren considers himself a pastor to pastors. Right he has got more than a million people who follow him on Facebook and Twitter and he says, ‘Here is a list of people that you should follow on Twitter.’ @JoelOsteen @BishopJakes @PastorCashLuna @BrianCHouston, @BillJohnsonBJM, @stevenfurtick, @TroyGramling, @perrynoble and the list goes on and on and on.

Well what is he doing? He is doing exactly what the scripture tells him not to do. Is he not bound by these commands of scripture just like he is bound to the commands of scripture that say, ‘You shall not bear false witness. You shall not covet your neighbour’s property. You shall not lie. You shall not steal. You shall not commit adultery.’

Exodus 20 v 14-17 (ESV – English Standard Version)

14 “You shall not commit adultery.

15 “You shall not steal.

16 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

17 “You shall not covet your neighbour’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male servant, or his female servant, or his ox, or his donkey, or anything that is your neighbour’s.”

Is he not also bound to these commands? The answer is yes he is. But he won’t be bound by them and he can’t be bound them because his allegiance is not to what scripture says. His allegiance is to an ideology that allows him to affirm every single, every single congregation that calls itself Christian regardless of what it teaches, including The Roman Catholic Church. His ideology allows him to say all of those are expressions of the truth and that they have some truth in them and their communities and Christ is among them and I am not going to rebuke them or separate from them. In fact I can encourage everybody to go to them.

Keep in mind Rick Warren recently endorsed a book by a Roman Catholic called Catholics Come Home and Rick Warren wrote an endorsement for it and when called on the carpet regarding that. You know what he said, ‘God loves diversity.’ That is what he said, ‘God loves diversity.’ No God does not theological and doctrinal diversity. Instead God likes doctrinal fidelity and sound doctrine. Otherwise God the Holy Spirit would not have inspired the apostle Paul to write these words from Titus 1, starting at v5. Here is what it says…..

Titus 1 v 5-8 (ESV – English Standard Version)

This is why I left you in Crete, so that you might put what remained into order, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you— if anyone is above reproach, the husband of one wife, and his children are believers and not open to the charge of debauchery or insubordination. For an overseer, as God’s steward, must be above reproach. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain, but hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined.

And here is the important verse.

Titus 1 v 9-11 (ESV – English Standard Version)

He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.

If God liked diversity of doctrine, if God if that is really what God is really all about, as long as it has Jesus name on it – then the Holy Spirit would have never ever inspired Paul to say that a pastor ‘must be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and to rebuke those who contradict it.’ And this goes on. For why should we rebuke people who don’t teach sound doctrine? Here is the reason v10.

            Titus 1 v 10 (ESV – English Standard Version)

10 For there are many who are insubordinate,

These are rebellious people.

Titus 1 v 10 (ESV – English Standard Version)

10 Empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision party. 11 They must be silenced,

God is not saying, ‘Oh no, no, no we need to…..I love diversity and as long as Jesus name is being proclaimed, it doesn’t matter what anybody is teaching doctrinally. They can just teach whatever they want.’ No scripture says that they have to be silenced. Okay here is what it says….

Titus 1 v 10-14 (ESV – English Standard Version)

10 For there are many who are insubordinate, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision party. 11 They must be silenced, since they are upsetting whole families by teaching for shameful gain what they ought not to teach.

12 One of the Cretans, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” 13 This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, 14 not devoting themselves to Jewish myths and the commands of people who turn away from the truth.

Yeah it gets worse actually…..

Titus 1 v 10-15 (ESV – English Standard Version)

15 To the pure, all things are pure, but to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled. 16 They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work.

Now I would say Rick Warren falls under the category of Titus 1 v 16. He claims, he professes to know God. But he denies that he knows God by his works. By all the shenanigans that he engages in, all the Bible twisting that he engages in, all of the times that he is out there promoting rank heretics.

Basically having pastors under his authority writing documents that make it appear that Muslims and Christians worship the same God. I mean the list goes on and on and on. He professes to know God, professes to be sound in the faith, professes to be orthodox.

Yet every time he opens his mouth he shows that he is not. He constantly does things that are contrary to sound doctrine and what is his pet procedure for doing this? He causes the offending thing to disappear, so that it can’t the only place that it remains – a record of his offences are on so called discernment blogs.

Uh huh that should tell you something. He professes to know God, but he denies that he knows God based upon his works. Because his works are not accordance with sound doctrine. He is teaching exotic theologies and has no problem working with and endorsing people who also do the same thing. Why? Because he is not conscious bound by what the scripture commands here. He is beholden to an ideology that is foreign to scripture.

Now what I am going to do here is I am going to pause and I am going to take our first break and if you would like to email me regarding anything you have heard on this edition or any previous editions of Fighting for the Faith, you can do so. My email address is talkback@fightingforthefaith.com or you can subscribe on Facebook. It is facebook.com/piratechristian or you can follow me on Twitter. My name there is @piratechristian.

When we come back we are going to look at the Andy Stanley piece kind of revisit what he said. Look at what Denny Burk said and look at Andy Stanley’s clarification and again all of these pieces work together and then after that we have got a Mark Driscoll update. So stay tuned. Don’t want to miss it. We will be right back.

Below is a transcript taken from Chris Rosebrough’s radio show podcast Fighting For The Faith Radio podcast which was originally broadcast on Wednesday May 27th 2009, which you can subscribe to iTunes. I highly recommend you do this if you want to develop discernment. 

Here is the video link for this transcript > http://youtu.be/ML5vm9oANn0

Segment – [00:49:45 – 00:53:02]

Chris Rosebrough, “Alright moving along here in today’s news. Let’s see here. You know I am going to do the T.D. Jakes one. T.D. Jakes those of who think he is some great powerful Christian pastor. He is not. He is a Modalist. He doesn’t believe in the doctrine of the Trinity. That makes him a heretic.

But he was recently fielding questions and somebody who was a Muslim asked him a question about inner faith and relations and things like that and the question came up as to whether or not people from other faiths go to heaven and so you want to hear T.D. Jakes answer to this. If those of you who are thinking that this a fine Christian man and that he really needs to be getting in front of other people. They need to listen to what T.D. Jakes has to offer. Uh….no here we go….”

Radio Show host, “This is Annette with us from Portland, Oregon.”

Annette, “Hi thanks for taking my call.

Radio Show host, “Sure….”

Annette, “I’m a Muslim here in Portland. I’m part of a Shiite community. And we had a wonderful interface dialogue last weekend with a local Unitarian church. And I would like to ask you please to speak about concrete experiences you’ve had as far as interfaith dialogue goes. And also would like to ask you, do you feel that only Christians could hope to enter Heaven?”

Bishop T.D. Jakes, “Very great question. When it comes to interfaith experiences, I am currently serving by the appointment of former President Bush and President Clinton, as co-chair of an interfaith advisory committee to help people get back up on their feet.

And we do have on the board Muslims, Catholics, a Jewish Rabbi, Baptists, Methodists, Pentecostals across the board. And we are working together very effectively because we all care about common goals. We have our distinct theologies and our own ideologies but there are common grounds that we can work together very effectively in many, many cases.

When it comes to Heaven, I try to leave that up to God.”

Chris Rosebrough, “What when it there is a Shiite Muslim girl who is talking to you, she has asked you a question and you say that when it comes to heaven you leave that up to God? If you were a Christian pastor wouldn’t you think that your obligation would be to proclaim salvation in Christ alone? Doesn’t scripture say that…..

Acts 4 v 12

12 There is no other name given under heaven by which men must be saved.

Just a question…..”

Bishop T.D. Jakes, “I certainly believe that Christianity is right, but when it comes down to the final test–who goes and who doesn’t go–Jesus said, Other sheep have I who are not of this fold…..”

Chris Rosebrough, “Ugh man Jesus said other sheep. He might as well be a Mormon. Jesus said other sheep I have that are not of this fold (John 10 v 16). He was talking about the Gentiles T.D. Jakes…..”

Bishop T.D. Jakes, “Them also must I bring. I will let Him identify who those sheep are and I stay out of the conversation.”

Chris Rosebrough, “So there you have it a complete cop out on the part of T.D. Jakes. I am telling you that guy is as phoney as a three dollar bill. I do detect that I will be having to do a T.D. Jakes sermon review before too long here at Fighting for the Faith.

If those of you who are familiar with his works would like to send me suggestions for a good T.D. Jakes sermon review, would love to get the links on that. I would love hear what you think I should be reviewing there. It just saves me a little bit of time. Oh man so there you have it.”

Fighting for the Faith Chris Rosebrough Reviews Christine Caine’s Sermon at Steven Furtick’s Code Orange Revival 2012

Below is a transcript taken from Chris Rosebrough’s radio show podcast Fighting For The Faith Radio podcast which was originally broadcast on Monday January 16th 2012, which you can subscribe to iTunes. I highly recommend you do this if you want to develop discernment.  

[Segment – 00:40:46 – 01:11:06]

Here is the video link for this transcript >  http://youtu.be/vDYkj6Ll0ro

Chris Rosebrough, “Anyway moving along, we have got another segment here and what we are going to do, we are going to jump ahead to where Christine Caine takes the stage there at Elevation at the Code Orange Revival and watch right out of the shoot she is going to do the very thing that Matt Chandler said not to do – read herself and read Steven Furtick into The Bible. Yeah it is true here is Christine Caine.”

Christine Caine, “Awesome how are you all doing? Wow you can all be seated. You all, you have got to sit down. This place is incredible. You can be seated, I don’t know how I am supposed to preach after that. I don’t know, I have never kind of quite been introduced like that, all the Elevation Church people. I just turned round to Holly as Pastor Steven was talking going that is unbelievable that you know like twenty one percent was that right?

I am just reiterating that for the finance people. Twenty one percent of all the tithes and offerings coming in this week, so you all better give good this week. That is all I am saying. I just I am in awe and I have not been able to wait. You know I love, this is room is packed. This place is a little bit like God take this is in context, in that like you are omnipresent, you are here. You are across the room. You are down the street. You are all over the worldwide web. It is like wherever you look, here we are and it is my honour and privilege to be here. I couldn’t wait.

You know when Pastor Steven first started to tweet and kind of just fulfil us out there about the revival. I am old school, I am both Greek and a woman and raised in Australia. So we only preach….”

Chris Rosebrough, “Talking about herself……”

Christine Caine, “So we only preach three ways hard fast and continuously. So you will not fall asleep and so I am kind of getting all fired up when I was reading those tweets and I am dropping hints. You know like you really need me to be there. But I have been watching every night and you know I have learnt a lot, Pastor Craig taught me how to be an idiot and it was awesome and then Pastor Jentezen informed me that Pastor Craig was option number one. He was option number two. But I wasn’t hearing anything about who was option number three, so I was hoping that you would still like it. But I was number one. Okay right it is okay. We are all number one and it just gets better and better with God.

So you don’t to miss one night of these revivals. I am like you know it is absolutely awesome what the LORD is doing. There is no doubt about it. But….”

Chris Rosebrough, “What exactly is He doing there? Sowing doctrinal confusion?”

Christine Caine, “But I really couldn’t wait and I am just loving it, because you are like everywhere. Like you know I have been watching this online every night and it has been awesome. But you have got to be here because it is insane online. It is another level of insanity in this place. It is another….it is a whole another level and I have been waiting for….”

Chris Rosebrough, “Yeah I prefer to keep my insanity and my Christianity separate. You know just something I have, I am a little OCD (obsessive compulsive disorder) about you know, we continue…..”

Christine Caine, “It is another level and I have been waiting for today. You know Pastor Steven and Holly they have, it is not just like you stand here and you are supposed to say something nice. It is true. My heart was knitted to your Pastor. I first heard him actually online on a podcast I think on some kind of recording, talk about honour and that is why tonight as he was talking there I thought I hope the whole world listens. I don’t even need to get up and speak. I just wished that he kept going….”

Chris Rosebrough, “Yeah the whole world needs to listen to Steven Furtick huh.”

Christine Caine, “Because I was weeping and I called my Pastor and I said to my Pastor, ‘There is this young man and you know kind of forty five. So anyone is  young. But anyway so do I look forty five? Right answer we can be friends. I am incidentally married to the single most ravaging piece of masculine flesh on planet earth and here he is, this is the man.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Yeah I think that is part of her standard stump speech. I have heard her do that before.”

Christine Caine, “He is hot and he is the father of my two children alpha and omega and so we have Catherine, Bobbie and my little Sophia Joyce and they have a party to go to so they are at home and this church you are so outrageously generous that you sent my kids pizza which they are not allowed to have. But anyway you sent my kids pizza and beads and paints, because my little girls want to be artists and I have got to tell you this is the first church. Because their mother and dad we are like travelling itinerant ministers. They called us on the phone and said, ‘Mummy any time that church wants you, you can go, can you go to that church again.”

Chris Rosebrough, “So far Christine Caine takes the stage and she talks about herself. I wonder what God is saying through this. I you know can’t quite figure it out. Maybe if I tuned into the Elevation Network you know I can get some kind of a weird vibe that will tell me what God is saying through this. Because you know I am just assuming I am not hearing a single word from God at this point.”

Christine Caine, “You all want to stay and have the whole revival over there, so they were like so excited and I had before I get to preaching you don’t have to worry, because I can say a lot in a little period of time. But there is just one passage that I want to talk about before I get into my message for the night and I know that God is going to move powerfully.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Yeah now watch this, this  is the very thing Matt Chandler warned against.”

Christine Caine, “I want to say something because I had this. I was here last year and was so moved then and it was more than what I thought. But there was something I wanted to say, not just to the church. But to everyone watching this and there are multiply countless, thousands of people, tens of thousands of people watching this around the world right now and you know I don’t say this lightly. But I want to read a couple of passages of scripture and just explain my whole experience of my husband and I in our friendship with your Pastors and with this house in our interaction. You know David said I just am going to read a scripture out of 1 Chronicles 22 v 5. Then I am going to turn to 2 Chronicles. But David said in v5.

1 Chronicles 22 v 5 (NIV – New International Version)

David said, “My son Solomon is young and inexperienced, and the house to be built for the Lord should be of great magnificence and fame

Everyone say great magnificence and fame. I love this….

1 Chronicles 22 v 5 (NIV – New International Version)

And splendour in the sight of all the nations.  Therefore I will make preparations for it.”

I love this because David was getting ready to build the greatest project ever built. The greatest house to God, the temple of God and this was going to be, you heard I think Pastor….”

Chris Rosebrough, “Okay now let me just kind of help you out here. So that you can understand the magnitude of what it is that Christine Caine is about to say. She is reading from The Old Testament account of David storing up basically you know the building supplies, so that the temple of the LORD can be built. Okay those of you who have travelled to Israel. Now personally I have never been to Israel. I hope to go some day. But in Israel, in Jerusalem you have the temple mount. Alright and on the temple mount there used to be the temple.

Alright the, literally where the presence of the LORD was, this is a huge historical spot in the history of The Bible, the salvation history and all the light and yes at this point Christine Caine is about to draw the comparison between Elevation Church and the temple of the LORD in this Old Testament Book of Chronicles.

Christine Caine, “You heard I think Pastor Jentezen talked about how many billions of dollars that building project was going to be and what I love is he says,

1 Chronicles 22 v 5 (NIV – New International Version)

5 “My son Solomon is young and inexperienced,

And then he gives him 85 billion bucks to go and build something awesome. It is just fantastic. But he says he is young and inexperienced and then he goes on and he says but there is only one kind of house. If we are going to build a house to the LORD, there is only one kind of house that must be built and this isn’t just a small insignificant house. He goes on he says it should be of great magnificence and fame

1 Chronicles 22 v 5

It should be of great magnificence and fame and  splendour in the sight of all the nations.

And I don’t know about you, but those of you that are planted in this house. I am from the other side of the world. I am from the uttermost parts of the earth and your fame by the grace of God. Your renown by God’s grace has spread around the earth. You are building a house that is a magnificent house. That is a great house….”

Chris Rosebrough, “So let me see if I have this straight. Elevation Church has the renown around the world that Solomon’s temple had. Huh because not that the renown of Jesus is making its way around the world from Elevation Church it is that they have this renown. I mean this is breathtakingly arrogant and absolutely narcissistic, am I to somehow believe that Elevation Church is graced with the presence of Steven Furtick and the renown that is going around the world like Solomon and his temple? Really, yeah I wouldn’t say that the focus here is off by one or two degrees. I would say it is off by one hundred and eighty.”

Christine Caine, “That is a great house and that we see him impacting the world and you know what? The Bible teaches us that is the kind of house that ought to be built for the LORD. Because we saw a wonderful king and there should not be no-one on earth that gets a better house than the king of kings and the Lord of Lords than our mighty God.”

Chris Rosebrough, “That is right Elevation Church just like Solomon’s temple.”

Christine Caine, “And that the fame of Jesus should  resound throughout the earth. I love this.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Yeah right after the fame of Steven Furtick and Elevation. Yeah Jesus is a well third spot there.”

Christine Caine, “And then the Queen of Sheba. When the house was built…..”

Chris Rosebrough, “Yeah listen to what she does here…..”

Christine Caine, “Solomon was ruling and here you are five years on as a church. Almost six years, just about to celebrate and as I was driving here today from the airport.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Do you think the people at Elevation need their egos stroked anymore? I mean I am afraid that their brains might blow up. I mean….”

Christine Caine, “I was driving here today from the airport, kind of went we are only a third of a way through the revival and then we are just right into so many other things. But you are about to celebrate six years, who would have thought six years young. My little six year old just turned six. Because that is what you do when you are six, you turn six and so she turned six. But the Queen of Sheba, she said the Bible says in 2 Chronicles 9…..

2 Chronicles 9 v 1 (NIV – New International Version)

1 When the Queen of Sheba heard of Solomon’s fame, she came to Jerusalem to test him with hard questions.

I love that. That is what women do sorry…..

2 Chronicles 9 v 1 (NIV – New International Version)

1 Arriving with a very great caravan—with camels

I didn’t bring any of those….

2 Chronicles 9 v 1-4 (NIV – New International Version)

1 Carrying spices, large quantities of gold, and precious stones—she came to Solomon and talked with him about all she had on her mind.Solomon answered all her questions; nothing was too hard for him to explain to her. When the queen of Sheba saw the wisdom of Solomon, as well as the palace he had built, the food on his table,

I want you to see how much everything matters.

2 Chronicles 9 v 4 (NIV – New International Version)

The food on his table, the seating of his officials,

Chris Rosebrough, “Yeah see because the reason why the Holy Spirit had these details regarding Solomon and the temple and Solomon’s fame you know recorded is so that we can then compare Solomon to Steven Furtick….”

Christine Caine, “2 Chronicles 9 v 4 (NIV – New International Version)

4 “The attending servants in their robes, the cupbearers in their robes and the burnt offerings he made at the temple of the Lord, she was overwhelmed.

2 Chronicles 9 v 5-6 (NIV – New International Version)

She said to the king, “The report I heard in my own country about your achievements and your wisdom is true. But I did not believe what they said until I came and saw with my own eyes. Indeed, not even half the greatness of your wisdom was told me; you have far exceeded the report I heard.”

Chris Rosebrough, “I totally expect the Furtick Audaciously Revised translation of The Bible, when that thing finally comes out. Again that is the Furtick Audaciously Revised translation of The Bible. I fully expect that when that finally hits the bookshelves and the internet that there will be you know First and Second Furtick added to the end of that particular Bible.

Again that is the Furtick Audaciously Revised translation and once that is you know hits the bookshelves, we will be blessed with brand new material for The Bible – First and Second Furtick and I am telling you it will just be audacious and you know I am so glad that we were graced by his presence and that we finally have a place where the renown of somebody who is hearing from the LORD, can go around the world just like King Solomon.

2 Chronicles 9 v 7-8

How happy your men must be! How happy your officials, who continually stand before you and hear your wisdom! Praise be to the Lord your God, who has delighted in you and this house….

And I am here to tell you from the other side of the world. I had heard about what God was doing. I had heard about the greatness of this house.…..”

Chris Rosebrough, “I just want to vomit…..”

Christine Caine, “The excellence of this house. The magnificence of this house. But as someone that has come from across the earth. Not only did I hear you come in like the Queen of Sheba. I was breath taken, it is like the half of it wasn’t even told me. Every person that I meet here is on fire for God. Everyone has got an awesome salvation story.

Everyone has encountered a risen LORD. Everyone has got and I love the excellence. I love the generosity. I love the hospitality. Because that is what she said. You can tell the condition and the heart of a house, based on everything around that. When you have a house that sends pizza to my daughters to say thank you that your mummy would come and do a revival meeting, I think that is the kind of house that you ought to say thank God that I am planted in that kind of house, serving such great…..”

Chris Rosebrough, “Yeah I know did you know that Solomon’s temple did not serve pizza. I mean that proves to you that Elevation Church in Charlotte, North Carolina exceeds the greatness of Solomon’s temple. Because they did not serve pizza there. You know I am just saying.”

Christine Caine, “Serving such great leaders that can hear from God. I love it.”

Chris Rosebrough, “So there we go narcissistic eisegesis like you wouldn’t believe. But now Elevation Church is Solomon’s temple. Yeah I am so glad that we finally have a place for the glory of the LORD to shine forth around the world there at Elevation Church in Charlotte, North Carolina and for the prophet Steven Furtick. I mean, I am sorry that maybe wrong but for the Messiah himself Steven Furtick.

By the way somebody pointed this out to me on Twitter and I thought this was kind of interesting if you remember back to the episode where I review the documentary that was made about you know the six year old fledgling church you know and how great it was. It was weird watching it because all of the stories that were told were telling the miracles of Steven Furtick. You know and it was done gospel style. In the sense that Jesus fasted for forty days, so did Steven Furtick. Jesus fed the five thousand, Steven Furtick dropped the twenty five thousand Easter eggs out of a helicopter. Jesus cursed the fig tree. Steven Furtick cursed Sofa Express.

Just weird I mean so you know it is like you are telling the story of the Messiah and it is not Jesus. It is Steven Furtick. Well someone pointed out to me that Jesus called his 12 disciples. Furtick texted 12 you know his 12 for this revival and it is interesting to note just like Jesus, you know remember Jesus one of His 12 betrayed Him. That would be Judas. Well one of Furtick’s 12 betrayed him. That would be Matt Chandler and how did Matt Chandler betray Steven Furtick? By preaching the biblical gospel. Just weird, just this you know it is like watching Jesus life mirrored in Steven Furtick, except for Steven Furtick is a mere man. Jesus was God in human flesh. Strange stuff.

Okay I am going to fast forward to the tail end now you know as we are doing our Code Orange Revival Recap from the weekend. Christine Caine again as she is getting ready to wind her message down. She is well, talking her gospel apparently is some kind of a message that God is able or with God all things are possible. I want to point this out. I want you to hear it and I will explain to you why this is not exactly good news and what is really going wrong here. Here again is Christine Caine…..

Christine Caine, “So anyway she is calling the captain and then she puts the phone down and she looks at the lady and me and she goes, ‘Mrs Caine the captain has said you can come on board.’ This other women I mean she said many four letter words, none of them are love and so what happened was they then opened and you know I mean I am being treated like royalty. They opened the gate I walked in. They opened the airplane door. I could hear people on the plane because they….”

Chris Rosebrough, “Isn’t it weird like how you know just kind pick any old spot in the middle of her speech and who is she talking about? Herself yeah weird, how is this a move of God again? What am I supposed to hear God say while she is talking about herself?”

Christine Caine, “I could hear people on the plane because they do that for special people. They are like who is she? Is that Madonna? Is that Lady Gaga? Didn’t know if I was to be offended. But anyway I am working on the plane going favour, faith is not fear. Anyway so I am on there and so now the plane is in Chicago. We are going to take off. I am texting everyone accidentally and you know God is on my side.

I just got a miracle. It is been a long time since this kind of you know the door is opening. The whole deal is happening and then we are in the light and the captain comes over the loudspeaker about thirty minutes. He says, ‘Ladies and gentlemen, because of bad weather one of the runways has been shut down. They are only operating one life one runway and so we are now number twenty seven for take off. We haven’t got enough gas to stay in line and then to be able to fly and land. So we have to get out of line. We have to go back to the gate, refuel and maybe we might get a clearance for take off tonight. But we don’t anticipate it.

So you know within ten seconds I went from faith is not fear, I am God’s chosen child to my God I can’t believe that I was preaching for you. When I did all of this and you couldn’t even and you know how you go. None of you just pastors. Okay so we were just like you know this isn’t going to work. Well this has never happened before or since, but I don’t know what happened. So I just went God I don’t know what you can do but I just want to see my girls.

So the plane turns round, like to go down the middle, to go down the closed runway. So that it can go back to the gate. As God is my witness, the plane turns, the captain comes over the loudspeaker and goes, ‘Ladies and gentlemen, please ensure that your seatbelts are securely fastened. We have been cleared for immediate take off.” He chucks a one eighty, puts it on full throttle, goes down the closed runway and we take off and I am waving to the other twenty six airplanes saying, ‘I don’t know what happened.’ But what is impossible with man is possible with God.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Okay now the reason I played this leading up again she is preaching about herself and her life experience. I mean seriously the Word of God is living and active not your life stories. So yeah your life stories don’t have the power to bring people to repentance and the forgiveness of their sins.

Just saying, but here now we begin to hear – she is talking about God’s favour and she mangles the concept biblically and now she is you know we are getting to the point where in her style of preaching, she is building up to the point where she is going to be screaming about it and everyone is going to be clapping about. You know big emotional thing going on here about God’s favour and how nothing is impossible with God.

But you see the thing is that the message, nothing is impossible with God is not the gospel. It is a fact. It is absolutely true. However God is not up in heaven you know basically sitting on his hands looking at you going, ‘When are you going to figure out that nothing is impossible with me.’ I mean as soon as you figure out, then I will be able to bless you and grace you with my favour. But until then I am pretty much powerless. Yeah that is not what is happening at all. Remember God is God, He is sovereign. He is the LORD. He is King. He is the alpha and the omega. The beginning and the end. God has a sovereign will, which is why scripture says when we pray anything according to His will. He will hear and answer.

So yeah the way this is being preached is that as soon as you come to the realisation that nothing is impossible with God, then God will start making the impossible happen in your life. The Bible doesn’t teach this. Yet this is exactly the implication of what it is that she is saying here. We continue…..”

Christine Caine, “When is the last time you just believed God in situations where you think, ‘You know that can’t happen.’ But God can make a way from small personal things to global things. You know when we started The A21 Campaign, remember this again. When we started The A21 Campaign pretty amazing. We hired some top consultants to come and do a feasibility study in Thessalonica Greece about the whole of Eastern Europe and what we should do.

And do you know the LORD, I just…..”

Chris Rosebrough, “Oh here we go again another life story…..”

Christine Caine, “I just had a sense from the LORD that we were to start in that region of the world. I already knew. We had talked to the consultants before I had been. I said I know this region is very dark. The faith sector is very small, very embryonic. The Church sector is very small in this region of the world. That is why there is so much darkness, because of the absence of light and then I said, ‘I know it is an economic mess.’

I didn’t quite realise how bad it was in. But I knew it was not good economically. I knew there was major corruption with anti–trafficking authorities. That there were very few laws that were protecting the rights of girls as victims and children as victims of trafficking and that there had been no convictions of traffickers and that we would have our work cut out for us and that is why nobody was there, because it was so difficult. And so we called the consultants in.

Remembering I didn’t ask them to come in and tell me if we could start A21 in Eastern Europe. It was just going to be how were we supposed to start and so they came in and I was flying to meet them in Thessalonica. My husband was already there with them and he called me. I was in Frankfurt airport, in the airport lounge and he said to me, he said, ‘Honey are you sitting down? You are not going to like what you are going to hear.’

Now that is not a great way to start any conversation. He says, ‘I know what you are like. You are not going to like this.’ He said, ‘They have done the whole feasibility study.’ It was like a hundred page document. Extremely comprehensive, talking with the European Union, the European Parliament and the trafficking authorities, I mean it was as comprehensive as you will ever get. And he said to me, ‘Really Christine this is the bottom line.

This is what you are flying over to, at the end of the whole feasibility study their suggestion is this is their words – verbatim. They said, ‘We strongly recommend that you do not start The A21 campaign in Eastern Europe, because it will be impossible to see any convictions of traffickers, to find girls rescued because of….and then they went on to list the reasons and all the reasons were the same reasons that I had given them and they went through and I thought, ‘I paid you a lot of money and flew you across the world to tell me what I already knew.’

And all of a sudden right there in the airport lounge in Frankfurt, which me and everybody else in that lounge will remember this moment. Because extremely inappropriately loudly I stood up into my cell phone and I had my own Numbers 13 experience. Now I know I am not Caleb but God used Caleb in Numbers 13.”

Chris Rosebrough, “She had a Numbers 13 experience, just like Caleb. Now she is reading herself into the story of Numbers. This isn’t exegesis. This is eisegesis and it is narcissistic at that which makes it narcigesis.”

Christine Caine, “But God used Caleb to motivate and inspire me in the twenty first century, to take some steps of faith and a risk and so I stood up and I went you tell them that we are well able to do what God has called us to do. We are well able to take the land and can I just tell you. Four years since that report that….”

Chris Rosebrough, “So yeah just like Caleb were, well able to take the land. This isn’t the gospel, nor is this Christian preaching. Because this basically makes God into our butler, as soon as you realise that nothing is impossible with Him, you could pretty much strong arm Him into anything.”

Christine Caine, “Four years since that report that still have frames that tells me that it is impossible. By the grace of God A21 is in six nations, not just one. We have traffickers in jail. We have girls rescued and restored and their lives turned around. Because what is impossible with man, is possible with God, with God all things are possible.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Yeah you seem to forget the fact that He is sovereign and that He has a will and He is God and King and it just again this is not the gospel and as a result of it, we are not really hearing sound biblical teaching here. This is just pipe dreams.”

Christine Caine, “All things are possible. God is still the God that parts The Red Sea. God is still the God that tears down the walls of Jericho.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Yeah the Red Sea and the walls of Jericho are the obstacles in your life now. That is not how you read The Bible.”

Christine Caine, “God is still the God that makes a way, where there is no way. We will not rationalise God. We will not shrink God. Our God is so big. There is nothing our God cannot do. There is….”

Chris Rosebrough, “Yeah the problem is though the God you are describing here isn’t the God of The Bible. It is more like genii God, a big genii God at that who can do the impossible of course. But yeah…”

Christine Caine, “There is nothing our God cannot do and I love this house. Because you have a pastor and a faith that believes that with God all things are possible and we will never shrink God down to our level of experience. We will elevate.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Yeah weird because you have done nothing, but talk about your experiences and you really haven’t preached the biblical text.”

Christine Caine, “We will elevate our lives to come into alignment with the truth of the Word of God and what God declares and decrees, that is what we are going to do.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Declare and decree. Word of Faith heresy talk….”

Christine Caine, “So let me tell you. One of the main reasons most of us give up on the promises of God. You know I am 45. I have been doing this for over two decades. Planted in one church for that long, I love it see when you are in a healthy house. You don’t need to run anywhere else when you find a healthy family.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Still talking about herself…..”

Christine Caine, “When you find a healthy family, you stay in a healthy family. But I have seen people come and go. I have seen people more gifted than me, talented than me. I have seen people walk with the LORD for years, some for ten years. Some….”

Chris Rosebrough, “Yeah I am done hearing about this woman. Okay so you know I have got to take a second break. I need to reset the brain here for a second. Take a second break and come back and we will leave Christine Caine and talk about what Ed Young and Steven Furtick said last night at The Code Orange Revival.

Alright so if you would like to email me, regarding anything you heard on this edition or any previous editions of Fighting for the Faith. You can do so my email address talkback@fightingforthefaith.com. You can ask to be my friend on Facebook. It is facebook.com/piratechristian or you can follow me on Twitter. My name there is @piratechristian. We will be right back

Fighting For The Faith With Chris Rosebrough – Joel Osteen: Fake it Until You Make it

Below is a transcript taken from Chris Rosebrough’s radio show podcast Fighting For The Faith Radio podcast which was originally broadcast on Friday May 11th 2013, which you can subscribe to iTunes. I highly recommend you do this if you want to develop discernment. You can also watch Joel Osteen’s Easter sermon on youtube > http://youtu.be/adVcgElG1EI 

Here is the video link for this transcript >  http://youtu.be/_7jlbYBZfrs

Chris Rosebrough, “That is right Joel Osteen update. Sing along if you know it.”

What makes me happy
Fills me up with glee
Those bones in my jaw!
That don’t have a flaw

My shiny teeth and me

My shiny teeth that twinkle
Just like the stars in space
My shiny teeth that sparkle
Adding beauty to my face

My shiny teeth that glisten
Just like a Christmas tree
You know they walk a mile just to see me smile
Woo!
My shiny teeth and me
(shiny teeth shiny teeth)

Yes they are all so perfect

So white and pearly

Brush Gargle Rinse

A couple breath mints

My shiny teeth and me

My shiny teeth so awesome

Just like my favourite song
My shiny teeth I floss them
So they grow to be real strong

My shiny teeth I love them
And they all love me (AhhhAhhh)
Why should I talk to you
When I got 32 (woo)
My shiny teeth and me

Alright that was like my worst rendition of singing along to that song. Anyway Joel Osteen has finally posted his Easter sermon from this year and it is entitled You Have Resurrection Power. See if you can spot the problems with this thing. It is not all that hard to spot. I am really sad that he didn’t get this posted earlier, because I think he would have been a good contender for this year’s worst Easter sermon. Anyway here is Joel Osteen.….

[Crowd cheers]

Joel Osteen, “God bless you today. Such a joy to come into your homes, if you are ever in our area please stop by be a part of one of our services. I promise you we will make you feel right at home. But thanks so much for tuning in and thank you again for coming out today.

And I like to start with something funny and I heard about this man he was on vocation in Jerusalem with his family when his mother in law suddenly died. He went to make arrangements to get her body back home. The consulate said it would cost $5,000 dollars to have her shipped and $150,000 to have her buried right there in Jerusalem. He thought about it a moment, said he would like to have her body shipped back home. Consulate said, ‘Wow you must really have loved your mother in law.’ He said, ‘No it is not so much that. I just remember a case here many years ago when they buried somebody and the third day they arose and I can’t take that chance.’

Hold your Bible up…..”

Chris Rosebrough, “Yeah there is a little bit of Easter Sunday humour for you.”

Joel Osteen, “Say it like you mean it. This is my Bible. I am what it says I am…..”

Chris Rosebrough, “This is a competing creed to Christianity by the way. This is not a recognized creed within orthodox historic Christianity. In fact I would say this is absolutely contrary to the orthodox Christian creeds. But we continue…..”

Joel Osteen, “I have what it says I have. I can do what it says I can do. Today I will be taught the Word of God. I boldly confess my mind is alert. My heart is receptive. I will never be the same in Jesus name amen. God bless you.

I want to talk to you today about how you have resurrection power.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Now notice the emphasis on this Easter Sunday sermon here. You have resurrection power. He is not going to talk about Christ’s victorious resurrection from the grave. No we are going to take, I can tell you exactly what he is going to do. He is going to take a half sentence out of context and then build an entire theology on it. It isn’t even a full sentence but let me let him get it out first.”

Joel Osteen, “When you gave your life to Christ. God put a power in you, greater than any other power that you will ever face and we are not supposed to go through life….”

Chris Rosebrough, “Did you notice the wrong emphasis there? He said when you gave your life to Christ. No scripture teaches that Jesus gave His life for me. I didn’t give my life to Jesus. Yeah see this is backwards.”

Joel Osteen, “When you gave your life to Christ. God put a power in you, greater than any other power that you will ever face and we are not supposed to go through life backing down in fear, intimidated, like we are at a disadvantage. This problem is so big. The medical report is so bad or Joel these people are coming against me. They are so much more influential than me. I am no match for them…..”

Chris Rosebrough, “The medical record is bad. These people who are coming against me are so, what are you talking about?”

Joel Osteen, “No Romans 8 v 11 says the same power that raised Christ from the dead lives on the inside of you.

Romans 8 v 11

“The Spirit that raised Christ from the dead lives in you….”

Chris Rosebrough, “Now he didn’t actually quote it. Romans 8, now notice he read v11. Now let me read it to you, the entire verse because he didn’t even give us a full sentence.

Romans 8 v 11 (ESV – English Standard Version)

11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you,

Notice it starts with ‘if’….

Romans 8 v 11 (ESV – English Standard Version)

11 He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.”

And so what is really interesting about the way Joel Osteen quotes this. In fact you can’t see it. But if you were to see the video of this it says

Romans 8 v 11

…The Spirit that raised Christ from the dead lives in you….”

So there is an ellipsis at the front end and at the back end of this. Well when you see it this is a standard quoting you know procedure by the way. If you are quoting something and you leave out a part you put an ellipsis in there to you know make it clear that you are not giving the full quote. But that there is something before and something after and generally people will do that when the stuff in the ellipsis is like a subordinate clause or something that is another point that is being built off the main point and so they will take that out, so that the main point can be followed in a quotation. It is a standard convention if you would.

But again notice what he does here. Let me read it to you again from this television screen. It says….

Romans 8 v 11

…The Spirit that raised Christ from the dead lives in you….

So this Easter sermon from Joel Osteen is based not on an entire sentence. It is based on part of a sentence and the front end of the sentence has been locked off. The back end of the sentence has been locked off. In other words he is not telling you the whole thing. By the way in the front end the dot dot dot that has been you know the thing that has been cut off is the word ‘if’ and then at the back end the entire rest of the verse is missing.

So what we are going to do is we are going to apply our three primary rules for sound biblical exegesis and see if we can make sense of what is going on in this passage so that as we listen to this Easter sermon from Joel Osteen we can determine whether or not he is telling us the truth or if he is well pulling a fast one.

Romans 8 v 1-11 (ESV – English Standard Version)

1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

12 So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

So there you go. This is a section that is talking about the difference between you know pursuing the flesh or pursuing the Spirit. Living in the flesh or living in the Spirit and so v11 the entirety of it reads….

Romans 8 v 11 (ESV – English Standard Version)

11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

Now that you know the context of what this passage is really talking about. I think it is important to note like I have already noted that Joel Osteen has taken out his x acto knife and lifted out only the words that he wants in order to make the main point of his Easter sermon. We continue….

Joel Osteen, “Most of us believe that Jesus has incredible power. But God turned it around and said I am putting the same power in you. It is a power so strong that death couldn’t keep Him in the grave, a power so strong that all the forces of darkness couldn’t stop it. But here is the key the only way to activate the power is to believe. You can’t go through life thinking, ‘This situation is impossible. I will never accomplish my dreams.’”

Chris Rosebrough, “So I can’t go through life thinking this situation is impossible. I will never accomplish my dreams and you are getting this from Romans 8 v 11? It is as if the reason why you lifted out just that one section is so that you can insert your own theology. That is exactly what he is doing. This is eisegesis. This is not exegesis. This is a butchering and twisting of God’s Word. This passage doesn’t say anything about people feeling like, ‘Oh this situation is impossible or I will never be able to live my dreams.’ No it is not about that at all.”

Joel Osteen, “I have been through too much. That will keep you from your destiny. Have a new perspective.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Yeah you don’t want negative thinking to keep you from achieving and experiencing your destiny.”

Joel Osteen, “You are not weak. You are full of resurrection power. You may have had some bad breaks. But you are not a victim.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Actually no the text doesn’t say that I am full of resurrection power, again listen….

Romans 8 v 11 (ESV – English Standard Version)

11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you,

The Spirit, not resurrection power, this would be the Holy Spirit. This is talking about being indwelled by the Holy Spirit not having resurrection power inside of me. You know it is like you know the thing that keeps the energizer bunny going.”

Joel Osteen, “You are a victor. You are not supposed to back down from life. Run from difficulties. Run from things that are hard. No stand your ground and fight the good fight of faith. The reason it is called a good fight is because the enemy has already been defeated. The keys to death and hell have already been taken away. Jesus said, ‘The prince of this world comes…” talking about Satan and he has no power over me. You could say the same thing. The enemy has no power over you.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Yeah what was that passage again. I don’t recall you quoting it in context.”

Joel Osteen, “That sickness cannot stop you. That bad break cannot hold you back.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Yeah you know like that you know cancer. You know maybe you have a brain tumour. That can’t stop you. He said all the way to his grave. Again this sounds like the Christian Science Mary Baker Eddie mind sciences cults kind of stuff.”

Joel Osteen, “Those people can’t keep you from your destiny. There is a power in you.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Notice who this sermon Easter sermon is about. It is about you. This isn’t about Jesus and him being raised from the grave bodily. No this is about you and your destiny and not letting stinking thinking get in the way of your destiny and you know and letting the report from the doctor you know get in the way of your destiny. Because you have got resurrection power inside of you and yet Romans 8 v 11 says that you have the Spirit dwelling in you.”

Joel Osteen, “There is a power in you. That is no match for any power that tries to stop you. Now all through the day this should be playing in our mind. I am powerful. I am strong. I am well able.”

Chris Rosebrough, “I am a sinner. I have sinned. I am in need of Christ forgiveness Is that what you mean? Notice the I here, ‘I am powerful. I am this. I am that.’ Yeah this sounds a lot like you know the devils monologue from The Book of Isaiah.”

Joel Osteen, “I will not fear. I will not back down. I will not run and hide. I am not intimidated.”

Chris Rosebrough, “You won’t back down. Uh oh I feel a Fighting For The Faith gratuitous musical interlude coming on.”

Tom Petty – I Won’t Back Down

Well I won’t back down, no I won’t back down
You could stand me up at the gates of hell
But I won’t back down

Chris Rosebrough, “It is weird. It as if Joel Osteen got his theology from Tom Petty.”

Tom Petty, “Gonna stand my ground, won’t be turned around

And I’ll keep this world from dragging me down
Gonna stand my ground and I won’t back down

[Chorus:]
Hey baby, there ain’t no easy way out
Hey I will stand my ground
And I won’t back down…..”

Chris Rosebrough, “Alright enough of that, back to the sermon, sorry just needed to do that. You can’t just take a throwaway line like that and not go into a gratuitous musical interlude. We continue…..”

Joel Osteen, “I am not a victim. I am not at a disadvantage. I am full of resurrection power. Well you say, ‘Joel I don’t feel very powerful. I don’t feel very strong.’ But you can’t go by what you feel. You have got to go by what you know. Your feelings may change every other hour, and what you are up against may look bigger stronger, more influential, more powerful. That is okay. The bigger they are, the harder they fall. You have an advantage. It is called resurrection power and even though you may not feel powerful, you have got to put your shoulders back and start acting like you are powerful. Fake it until you make it.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Really that is well that is the best advice I have ever heard during an Easter sermon. You need to fake it, until you make it. That is going to be the name of this episode of Fighting For The Faith. Just saying oh man….”

Joel Osteen, “Act like you are strong, act like you are well able, act like you are more than a conqueror. Don’t go through life intimidated, when you have the most powerful force in the universe on the inside.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Yeah I have got resurrection power on the inside. I think you get what is going on. The irony about listening to a Joel Osteen sermon is once you have heard the first five minutes of any Joel Osteen you have actually heard the whole thing. So you have pretty much heard it all and you know the idea here, ‘You have got resurrection power. You are undefeatable and if you don’t believe it. You need to fake it until you make it.’

Yeah that is some crazy preaching for Easter Sunday, because he is not preaching about Jesus. He is preaching about you and somebody who is preaching about you especially on Easter Sunday, any Sunday really. But it stands out like a saw thumb on Easter Sunday. That person is not telling you the truth and they are not really pointing you to Christ. They are pointing you to yourself and the thing you have got to do to save yourself.

That is really what this is all about. You believing the right positive things and then thereby saving yourself. That is not biblical Christianity folks. That is something completely different and the reason why he snipped out that little one sentence from The Bible is so that he can make it say, whatever he wanted it to say and he succeeded. He succeed in making it say whatever he wanted it to say. But the problem is that anybody with a half a brain knows you can’t tell the truth about the Word of God via snippets of God’s Word out of context and strung together. Crazy stuff!

So what do you think? I would love to get your feedback. If you would like to email me regarding anything you have heard on this edition or any previous editions of Fighting For The Faith. You can do so my email address is talkback@fightingforthefaith.com or you can subscribe on Facebook – facebook.com/piratechristian or follow me on Twitter my name there is @piratechristian.

Fighting For The Faith With Chris Rosebrough – Steven Furtick Answers the Question Did God Make a Mistake?

Below is a transcript taken from Chris Rosebrough’s radio show podcast Fighting For The Faith Radio podcast which was originally broadcast on Tuesday May 14th 2013, which you can subscribe to iTunes. I highly recommend you do this if you want to develop discernment. You can also listen to Steven Furtick’s sermon mp3 – The Antidote to Insecurity  by subscribing to his church podcast: Elevation Church:: Charlotte, NC.

Here  is  the video  link  http://youtu.be/h0JVXhEzFBM

[First Segment – 00:09:29 – 00:09:41]

Chris Rosebrough, “We have a Steven Furtick update and he is going to be answering the question did God make a mistake? We are going to focus a little bit more on Steven Furtick’s narcissistic way of handling God’s Word.

[Second Segment – 00:50:46 – 01:13:55]

[Plays intro music for Steven Furtick]

That is right Steven Furtick update.

You walked up to the pulpit,

Like you were a man of God

Your hair strategically cut to the new style
That Bieber was making hot
You had one eye on the camera as you watched the crowd applaud
All of the pastors dreamed that you’d be their mentor, You’d be their mentor and…

You’re so vain, you probably think The Bible’s about you

You’re so vain, I bet you think The Bible’s about you
Don’t you, Don’t you?

You fooled me several years ago,

When I was just a baby sheep
Well you told me we were made to serve
And my tithe was all you’d need
But you twisted up The Bible so no one else had said a peep
I was afraid, then I heard the real  gospel, heard the real gospel, and…

You’re so vain, you probably think The Bible’s about you

You’re so vain, I bet you think The Bible’s about you
Don’t you, Don’t you?

Alright so Steven Furtick’s blog has a fairly recent blog post entitled Did God Make a Mistake? Now obviously the answer to the question is well no especially if you understand the correct understanding of the doctrine of original sin and also understand that as you are listening to Steven Furtick it is not God who has made a mistake. It is he who Steven Furtick who is making a mistake in his wrong handling of God’s Word. See I am getting distracted by the music. I am loving it, alright enough of that.

Okay so without any further or due here is Steven Furtick answering the question Did God make a mistake? And he is making a huge, Steven Furtick is he is making a huge mistake in how he is applying scripture and the understanding of the image of God. I will explain along the way. Here is Steven Furtick.

Steven Furtick, “The Bible says that….

1 Samuel 16 v 7 (NASB – New American Standard Bible)

7 Man looks at the outward appearance, God looks at the heart.

We can be all put together on the outside, but until you realise that God has been at work since before you were born, putting you together on the inside. You don’t even have a clue how valuable you are in Christ.”

Chris Rosebrough, “How, yeah narcissism written with a capital s.t.e.v.e anyway yeah weird there, see he did make an allusion to scripture. Listen again…..”

Steven Furtick, “The Bible says that….

1 Samuel 16 v 7 (NASB – New American Standard Bible)

7 Man looks at the outward appearance, God looks at the heart.

We can be all put together on the outside, but until you realise that God has been at work since before you were born, putting you together on the inside. You don’t even have a clue how valuable you are….”

Chris Rosebrough, “Oh wow I am so important because I need to know that God has been working on me on the inside since before I was born. Hogwash that is not what The Bible teaches. Now let me make you know a couple of things clear here. If you have your Bible flip on over to The Gospel of Mark chapter 7 and we are going to kind of pick up with the tail end of Jesus chastisement of the Pharisees and the scribes who came to visit him from Jerusalem, of course took issue with the fact that the disciples were eating with common hands.

The Greek there is common, so they were eating with common hands or you could say defiled hands and why were they defiled? Because they were not ceremonially washed before the disciples were eating their meal and of course everybody knows that if you since cleanliness is next to godliness, if you don’t wash your hands before you eat then you soil your Spirit and you become unclean in God’s eyes.

Well at least that was the Pharisees thought and they couldn’t be further from the truth and so Jesus chastises them for making void the Word of God through their tradition. Basically teaching things that are not in scripture, exalting their own man made notions and nullifying and letting go of God’s clear Word right and then for further clarification starting at Mark 7 v 14. Here is what Jesus said…..

Mark 7 v 14-17 (ESV – English Standard Version)

14 And he called the people to him again and said to them, “Hear me, all of you, and understand:15 There is nothing outside a person that by going into him can defile him, but the things that come out of a person are what defile him.”  16 If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear!  17 And when he had entered the house and left the people, his disciples asked him about the parable.

Now it is funny this wasn’t really a parable. You know here Jesus disciples think that Jesus is speaking parabolically, yeah He is not. This was just straight matter of fact. So He said to them…..

Mark 7 v 18-22 (ESV – English Standard Version)

18 And he said to them, “Then are you also without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into a person from outside cannot defile him,19 since it enters not his heart but his stomach, and is expelled?”

The Greek here is wonderful it says and then leaves him and goes into to the latrine. Right and so by saying this he is declaring….

Mark 7 v 20-22 (ESV – English Standard Version)

(Thus he declared all foods clean.) 20 And he said, “What comes out of a person is what defiles him. 21 For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery,

22 coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. 23 All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.”

Now with this little bit of information then could you somehow point me to something fantastic inside of me, inside of you that tells me how important you are? Because if you examine your life in light of this list I am absolutely confident that one hundred percent of everybody hearing my voice at this moment, whether it is a year from now, ten years from now or whatever everybody hearing my voice. There was nobody left standing after I read that list. Let me you know okay if you are able, if you are left standing and there is not a single thing on this that doesn’t apply to you email me I would like to hear from you because you obviously can walk on water. But let me read this list again. Jesus said…..

Mark 7 v 21-22 (ESV – English Standard Version)

21 For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality,

Have any of you had sexually immoral thoughts?

Mark 7 v 21-22 (ESV – English Standard Version)

21Theft, murder, adultery, 22 coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality,

By the way the Greek here is fantastic.

Mark 7 v 22 (ESV – English Standard Version

22 Envy, [the Greek is somebody with an evil eye. Somebody with the evil eye, that means envy] slander, pride, foolishness.

23 All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.”

Now is there anybody after listening to that list that can say, ‘Oh I am undefiled.’ No-one, we are this list shows that each and every one of us are defiled. That we have actually tested positive for the disease known as sin and that disease is doing what it does, producing the pussy oozy nasty defiling icky stuff that defiles us, because we sin as a result of what comes out. Sin starts in the heart.

So here already I mean Steven Furtick and this tiny little sound bite that we are going to be playing from him, already is off on the wrong foot. Oh you know because he says, ‘Well God looks at the heart.’ Well that is not good news. Because God knows exactly what is inside of there and Jesus Himself makes it clear, there ain’t nothing good in there. Listen again…..

Steven Furtick, “The Bible says that….

1 Samuel 16 v 7 (NASB – New American Standard Bible)

7 Man looks at the outward appearance, God looks at the heart.

We can be all put together on the outside, but until you realise that God has been at work since before you were born, putting you together on the inside.

Chris Rosebrough, “No you were born dead in trespasses in sins and at war with God. Read Ephesians 2 v 1-3….”

Steven Furtick, “You don’t even have a clue how valuable you are….”

Chris Rosebrough, “Oh I am so valuable. Right yeah…..”

Steven Furtick, “You don’t even have a clue how valuable you are in Christ. I want to say to every lady in our audience today. God put you together. He formed you. You are fearfully and wonderfully made. Every part of you is intentional. Everything about is something that was on His mind. You are unique….”

Chris Rosebrough, “Really so every part of you was intentional and on God’s mind. So it was on God’s mind and it was completely intentional on God’s part that all the ladies listening to this message would sin through coveting, envy, backbiting, gossip. You get what I am saying here? Yeah so that was all intentional on God’s part.”

Steven Furtick, “You are crafted in His image Genesis 1 v 26 according to His likeness. Say it again ladies.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Genesis 1 v 26 says that Adam and Eve were formed in the image of God. Adam and Eve and that something terrible happened and that is that well Adam and Eve rebelled against God and by rebelling against God their children they were born in the image of Adam and Eve the sinners. Let me read this from Genesis 4. You see quoting Genesis 1 and saying, ‘You are in the image of God. Well you are just super special, super duper wonderful all inside and out.’ No you are not. Adam and Eve sinned and every one of their children was born dead in trespasses in sins. I would point you to Romans 3 for instance where it says….

Romans 3 v 10 (ESV – English Standard Version)

10 There is none righteous, no, not one.

Yeah read that section from Romans 3 and you realise, yeah something has gone wrong here. But Genesis 5, I am sorry if I said four it is actually Genesis 5. Let’s just note that there is a change. There is a change that is going on here. Let me read to you from the book of generations from Genesis 5.

Genesis 5 v 1-2 (ESV – English Standard Version)

1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God. Male and female he created them, and he blessed them and named them Man when they were created.

Now in Genesis 5 v 1 notice it starts there with that we were as humans originally created in the image of God.

Genesis 5 v 3 (ESV – English Standard Version)

When Adam had lived 130 years, he fathered a son in his own likeness, after his image,

And so you begin to think, ‘Oh well something has changed there.’ In fact Genesis 6 & 7 really lay this out. Let me read to you the opening portion of Genesis 6.

            Genesis 6 v 1-4 (ESV – English Standard Version)

When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them, the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose.Then the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not abide in man forever, for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years.” The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown.

Now real quick here, just a quick little hermeneutical note, there are two schools of thought on this particular passage. One school of thought actually does go way back into the church fathers that believe that what we are talking about here in Genesis 6 v 1 are procreation taking place as angels are mating with women.

However Jesus Himself makes it clear that the angels are not given in marriage. Plus angels are spirit there and not corporal and so you know that I think that is not a good hermeneutic. I think that is not born out, although there is many Christians throughout Christian history who have believed that is the case. I disagree with that interpretation. I am with the other school.

Okay that being the case what is being talked about here are the sons of God. Well we are talking about intermarrying between those who are godly believers with well the descendents of Cain. So you have got two tracks going on here. You have the descendents of Adam, the generations following Adam and Seth and others and then the generations of Cain and his descendents and so you have inter you know basically religious intermarrying which shouldn’t be taking place.

I think that is a valid interpretation of a more probable interpretation based upon Jesus own claim regarding angels and so you know that is the school that I go into. But this is not one of those things that rises to the level of you need to anathematize somebody if they have one view or another. I just don’t think it is a tenable view that we are dealing with angels. But we get to v5 here is what it says…..

Genesis 6 v 5-6 (ESV – English Standard Version)

The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. [Or all the time] And the Lord regretted that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart.

So here is the idea is that you know Genesis 5 makes it clear that because Adam and Eve sinned that Adam and Eve’s descendents are born in the image of Adam and Eve who are sinners and that this wickedness goes all the way down into the heart. Which is exactly why Genesis 6 v 5 says that…..

Genesis 6 v 5 (ESV – English Standard Version)

5 The thoughts of man’s heart was only evil continually.

And the other passage there in Genesis says from youth. You know this is something that you know it begins in the womb if you would. So when Steven Furtick here is puffing people’s egos up and saying, ‘You are super duper special and God looks on the heart.’ And all this kind of stuff and then he makes an appeal to Genesis 1 that is a faulty appeal because that is pre fall of man. That is pre original sin and you know to make an appeal to that is to make it an appeal to Adam and Eve’s nature prior to them rebelling against God. We continue…..”

Steven Furtick, “That is God put me together. [Crowd, ‘God put me together.’] Yeah you have got to get that deep down inside of you yourself. Because some of you feel thrown together and you are not thrown together.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Yeah maybe the reason they feel that is because they understand how sinful they are.”

Steven Furtick, “When it comes to your spiritual relationship with God. You are put together. He is match matchie. Let me read you a Bible verse.”

Chris Rosebrough, “He is what? Match matchie? What is that?”

Steven Furtick, “Let me read you a Bible verse about God’s match matchie-ness.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Match matchieness. What is that? I feel like I am missing a cultural allusion here.”

Steven Furtick, “Ephesians 2 v 10….”

Chris Rosebrough, “Uh huh now what does Ephesians 2 v 10. Notice here in seeker driven megachurches and the purpose driven churches there is a rash of misreading of Ephesians 2 v 10 and what I mean by that is that it is quoted oftentimes from The Message paraphrase although Furtick is not going to read it from The Message paraphrase here. But to tell you how wonderful you are, but you see Ephesians 2 v 10 is the you know kind of the concluding thought of a bigger thought that begins at v1 and kind of has its culmination in v10. So let me read a little bit of Ephesians here so we understand what is really going on here.

So that when somebody quotes Ephesians 2 v 10 for you out of context, there is a better than ninety percent chance that they are twisting the passage, not always. But I mean there is ten percent chance they maybe correctly citing it. But it is always dubious when already we are off on the wrong foot. He is appealing to Adam and Eve – their nature before they sinned. Telling you how wonderful you are. Talking about all this stuff on the inside and God judges the heart and yet Jesus says out of the heart comes all this evil, vile filth and then here is what Paul writes….

Ephesians 1 v 1 (ESV – English Standard Version)

1To the church in Ephesus.

He you know talking before they were Christians and he says…..

            Ephesians 2 v 1 (ESV – English Standard Version)

1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins

By the way dead means you know dead.

Ephesians 2 v 2 (ESV – English Standard Version)

in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—

Weird that you know here Furtick is going to read Ephesians 2 v 10. But if he would just read few verses ahead I mean he couldn’t be saying any of this stuff that he is saying.

Ephesians 2 v 3-10 (ESV – English Standard Version)

among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.ButGod, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,

even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

So we the ‘we are God’s workmanship’  here is not some universal statement. This is talking about those who are Christians and those who are Christians they are in Christ Jesus and are God’s workmanship – created in Christ Jesus for good works, so God has saved us by grace through faith. It is a gift and not of ourselves. I mean great stuff there. But it is fascinating to me as I continue to study and listen to seeker driven sermons and exhortations and things of that nature that they skip Ephesians 2 v 8-9 and just skip right over to v10 and oftentimes read it from The Message paraphrase which says, ‘Oh you are God’s masterpiece,’ all of this designed to puff up your ego and not confront you with your sins and show you what a merciful and kind Saviour you have who would forgive even somebody as sinful as you born dead in trespasses in sins.

Instead the appeal here is to tell you just how amazingly wonderful you are. Hmm far from repentance and the forgiveness of sins we continue…..

Steven Furtick, (Ephesians 2 v 10 – NIV – New International Version) 10 For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

This is the same essence of the sentiment that the Psalmist is trying to communicate. God prepared things for you to do before you ever showed up on the scene.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Yeah because salvation apparently is being purpose driven.”

Steven Furtick, “And He created you to specifically match the very thing that He made you to do. Security in Christ begins when I realise that God put me together. He didn’t throw me together….”

Chris Rosebrough, “Yeah security in Christ begins and ends with, has its culmination and consummation in Christ and Him crucified for our sins, not how wonderful I am. Because what does Paul write in Romans that…..

Romans 5 v 8

8 God demonstrates his love for us in that while we were yet sinners,

Powerless Christ died for the what, for who? The ungodly you know people like me. People like you.

Steven Furtick, “Security in Christ begins when I realise that God put me together. He didn’t throw me together. Life didn’t throw me together. I am not an accident. The circumstances surrounding my life do not reflect directly the intention of my life. The intention of my Creator determines the direction of my life. God put me together and all of our locations clap your hands if you are grateful that your life was designed by a Master Creator.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Yeah there you go so. It kind of reminds me of that prophecy that the apostle Paul gives. Let me see if I can read this to you.

2 Timothy 3 v 1-2 (ESV – English Standard Version)

1 But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. For people will be lovers of self,

Now you are thinking wait a second I mean that is you know, it has always been that way. There has always been lovers of self and lovers of….no this is a prophecy about something that is going to take place in the church in the last times.

2 Timothy 3 v 1-2 (ESV – English Standard Version)

1 But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. For people will be lovers of self,

Narcissistic that is what we are talking about here.

2 Timothy 3 v 2-5 (ESV – English Standard Version)

2 Lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good,treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people.

In other words the apostle Paul prophesying about men like Steven Furtick. It doesn’t say, ‘Well go ahead and go to their church you know eat the meat, spit out the bones. He says, ‘Avoid such people.’ Yeah Steven Furtick’s gospel is the gospel of narcissism – self-love. Rather than God loving the unlovable in Christ by dying for their sins.

Big difference in the messages and well the end results of the two different types of messages. One true, the other false. The one self-love, the other Christ’s love for us, well the difference is night and day and the end result will be either heaven or hell depending and so which gospel are you believing? The gospel of self-love or the gospel of Christ died for sinners, wicked and vile who are defiled by the sin that burbles up from within their own hearts. See what I mean?

Alright we are up on our second break if you would like to email me regarding anything you have heard on this edition or any previous editions of Fighting For The Faith you can do so my email address is talkback@fightingforthefaith.com or you can subscribe on Facebook. It is facebook.com/piratechristian or you can follow me on Twitter my name there at @piratechristian.

Fighting For The Faith With Chris Rosebrough – Sermon Review, “Don’t Throw Away Your Confidence by Beth Moore”

Below is a transcript taken from Chris Rosebrough’s radio show podcast Fighting For The Faith Radio podcast which was originally broadcast on Wednesday March 3rd 2010, which you can subscribe to iTunes. I highly recommend you do this if you want to develop discernment. 

Here is the video link > http://youtu.be/3OcXjFeqoYQ

[First Segment – 00:22:57 – 00:24:23]

Chris Rosebrough, “Yesterday as promised I am going to be doing my very first review of a Beth Moore sermon / teaching. I don’t know whether you really can call it a sermon but and so we are going to be doing that some time in the second hour today. We will run a little bit long today because I what I feel like I need to wax eloquent. So just want to let you know and by the way the name of the lecture we are going to be listening to and we might have time for listening to two segments.

It is entitled Don’t Throw Away Your Confidence and if you haven’t heard me say it my first initial impression of Beth Moore after really sitting down and listening to her and comparing what she teaches in the name of God to the Word of God, is the best way I can describe her since she blinks very infrequently and the cadence and the speed at which she delivers her information while teaching is at like machine gun level speed. It is like listening, it is like watching somebody, it is like watching legalistic pietism on Red Bull energy drinks or you know crystal meth. I am not saying that she is addicted to crystal meth it just you know you understand what I am saying.”

[Second Segment – 01:12:28 – 02:40:08]

Chris Rosebrough, “Alright we are back hour number two, we are well into it here at Fighting For The Faith, this is our sermon review time and many requests for me to review the teachings of Beth Moore. This gal is like uber popular among the women Bible study and small group stuff and not hearing a lot of gospel from this lady. But let’s like queue up our sermon review music as is our tradition here at Fighting For The Faith. The good, the bad, the ugly – we review it all here at Fighting For The Faith. We are an equal opportunities sermon reviewing service.

Today’s sermon she is not a pastor so what do I call this thing. Teaching comes to us via Beth Moore. She has a regular teaching spot on a television programme called Life Today. The sermon we are going to…sermon, the lesson, the lecture – Beth Moore is going to be teaching. The name of her speech is Don’t Throw Away Your Confidence.

Now what I am going to do here is I am going to play the opening to this where she is being introduced by the hosts of this Life Today programme. Because it kind of sets up the issue. Okay because biblically who are we to have our confidence in? What does The Bible teach us about confidence? Does The Bible teach us to have self-confidence? Or is confidence like faith, it doesn’t have to have an object? Well actually confidence is like faith. It does have to have an object and I don’t think The Bible teaches us to have confidence in ourselves. Instead it teaches us to have confidence in Jesus Christ and what He has done for us. So let’s let me kill the music here. There we go alright.

So without any further or due here is the Life Today host introducing Beth Moore and this is called Don’t Throw Away Your Confidence. Here we go……”

Betty Robison, “Well it is that special day of the week again. Wednesdays are back.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Okay this is Betty and James Robison and it is Wednesday. It is that special day of the week where Beth Moore gets to teach. So here is Betty and James Robison. Yeah we continue…..”

Betty Robison, “I am Betty Robison and this is James.”

James Robison, “You look really pretty I just I was admiring your necklace, that our oldest daughter Rhonda gave Betty and it is absolutely beautiful. So Rhonda thanks you make your mum look beautiful and we appreciate it and we are thrilled that you are watching Wednesday’s with Beth and she is talking about Not Losing Our Confidence. You know some people would say, “Well I don’t have any self confidence. What have I got to lose? I don’t have any.” You know Betty when I first began preaching, would you say that boldness characterized my preaching?”

Betty Robison, “Oh absolutely…..”

James Robison, “And You know people used to say, “Well you sure do have a lot of self-confidence. I never had…..”

Chris Rosebrough, “Wait a second does The Bible teach us to have self-confidence? Self-confidence, see notice how he is setting this up and I thought this was important to include in the sermon review because he setting this up as if you know The Bible is telling us not to throw away our self-confidence. Oh….”

James Robison, “I never had any, because I never been told I could do anything until God called me to preach. He told me I was to preach and I thought, “Dear God how? And somehow He just gave me a gift and a lot of people listened to the boldness and the forcefulness and they thought, ‘Boy you have got a lot of self-confidence,’  and you know really I didn’t, but I had a tremendous God – confidence. Because I thought….”

Chris Rosebrough, “Okay…..”

James Robison, “Because I thought if God can use me, He can do anything and….”

Chris Rosebrough, “I had a God confidence that God can use me. Struggling here already, we haven’t even gotten into the Beth Moore segment. Just you know this is kind of important. I just kind of think this is one of those times where we maybe experiencing an adventure and missing the point.

James Robison, “Because I thought if God can use me, He can do anything and He can and the confidence is in what He does, well you are going to love the way Beth communicates it. Would you welcome Beth Moore? Here is Beth.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Yay here is Beth. Now I have got to say something, Beth is an engaging speaker. She is actually very talented in her delivery. That being the case though that doesn’t just because somebody is talented or engaging or anything like that doesn’t give them a theological pass on the content of their engaging delivery. You see what I am saying?”

Beth Moore, “Look at v35-36 at the tenth chapter of Hebrews.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Alright we have got a problem here, look at the v35-36. Hang on a second here pulling this up on my computerised Bible. Hebrews 10, okay by the way what are our three rules for sound biblical interpretation? I kid you not ninety percent of all Bible twists get cleared up just in a hot second. If you just take the time to read stuff in context. Okay and so she is saying to look at v35-36. Okay and it says this….

Hebrews 10 v 35-36 (ESV – English Standard Bible)

35 Therefore do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance,

Now here is a problem okay. This is mid paragraph, “Don’t throw away your confidence.” My confidence in what? Well if we add a little bit of context. It will actually tell you what it is. Here we go are you ready? Let me read let’s see here. You know what I am going to start at v1. Okay we need that much context. Hebrews 10 if you have your Bible open up and follow along. I am going to be reading from The ESV. Starting in v1…..

Hebrews 10 v 1-10 (ESV – English Standard Version)

1 For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near. Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sins? But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said,

“Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired,
but a body have you prepared for me;
in burnt offerings and sin offerings
you have taken no pleasure.
Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come to do your will, O God,
as it is written of me in the scroll of the book.’”

When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law), then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second. 10 And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

What is the context of Hebrews 10 up to this point? It is a comparison. The context here is the discussion and comparison of The Mosaic animal sacrifices. The animal sacrificial system that was setup and The Mosaic Law basically delivered at Mount Sinai for the Levitical priesthood to you know to offer sacrifices and comparing it to the once and for all sacrifice of Jesus Christ and His death on the cross for our sins. So it is a comparison of two sacrificial systems if you would. The one can’t really save us. The one truly did save us. The one had sacrifices offered year after year. The other one is once and for all sacrifice for our sins.

You are sitting there going, ‘Wait a second. Beth Moore’s teaching is about not throwing away your confidence.’ I am aware of what Beth Moore is teaching on. I am if you are paying attention here, what we are learning from the context is that already out of the shoot Beth Moore isn’t properly handling the scriptures because she is not dealing with the true context of Hebrews 10. That is what I am pointing out. That is why there is such a huge difference already about the topic being discussed apparently as setup by the hosts of The Life Today programme and already Beth Moore just barely getting into it and the context of Hebrews 10 itself.

In other words I think we can probably say without a shadow of a doubt that she is not really dealing with the real context of what this passage is saying. This isn’t about your confidence. This is about Christ blood. But let me continue…..

Hebrews 10 v 11-19 (ESV – English Standard Version)

11 And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. 14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

15 And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying,

16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws on their hearts,
and write them on their minds,”

17 then he adds,

“I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.”

18 Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.”

19 Therefore, brothers,since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus,

There is the first mention of confidence in Hebrews 10. It is in v19. Let me read it again.

            Hebrews 10 v 19-25 (ESV – English Standard Version)

19 Therefore, brothers,since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, 20 by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, 25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.

What is the confidence that the inspired author is telling us to have here in Hebrews 10? The confidence to draw near to God because of Christ’s sacrifice and His blood shed on the cross for our sins. That is the confidence being discussed here. It is not self-confidence at all. We continue…..

Hebrews 10 v 26-31 (ESV – English Standard Version)

26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

I wonder what McLaren would say about that and now here is the beginning of the paragraph that Beth Moore has taken out of context.

Hebrews 10 v 32-36 (ESV – English Standard Version)

32 But recall the former days when, after you were enlightened, you endured a hard struggle with sufferings, 33 sometimes being publicly exposed to reproach and affliction, and sometimes being partners with those so treated. 34 For you had compassion on those in prison, and you joyfully accepted the plundering of your property, since you knew that you yourselves had a better possession and an abiding one. 35 Therefore do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.

Confidence in what? It is already discussed in the greater context of Hebrews 10. It is not self-confidence. It is confidence to enter into the throne room of God based upon Christ’s shed blood for us on the cross. The once and for all sacrifice for sins.

Hebrews 10 v 36-39 (ESV – English Standard Version)

36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised.

37 For,

“Yet a little while,
and the coming one will come and will not delay;
38 but my righteous one shall live by faith,
and if he shrinks back,
my soul has no pleasure in him.”

39 But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls.

Now is Hebrews 10 about confidence in yourself or self-confidence or anything like that? Not even close. It is about confidence of the forgiveness of sins won by Christ, once for all sacrifice on the cross. It is that confidence that allows us to boldly go before God in prayer and pray,

Matthew 6 v 9

Our Father who art in heaven,

Hallowed be thy name.

That is what we are talking about. That is what Hebrews 10 is talking about. Now let’s see what Beth Moore does with this. Now that we know the context here, she is having us start at what v35-36 of Hebrews 10, already we have got a problem and we have just started this review.

Beth Moore, “I am going to tell you something. These are verses screaming to be memorized. I pray that not only are we going to study these verses over the weeks to come, but that you are going to let them abide in you. Where you can call these verses up over and over again, that you cannot just read…..”

Chris Rosebrough, “Now I agree with her here. Bible memorization is a very good practice for Christians to engage in. It makes it possible for us to have God’s Word hidden in our hearts so that it is readily available for us and if we were to take her advice and we would need to not just memorize these verses.

We would really need to study, mark inwardly, digest and try to memorize the whole sum of Hebrews 10 which points us to Christ, His shed blood on the cross for us, for our sins as a once and for all sacrifice and our ability now to have confidence to boldly go before God, knowing that our hearts have been cleansed by the work of Christ, by His blood. So yeah I agree with her. But let’s see how she applies it.

Beth Moore, “I am going to tell you something. These are verses screaming to be memorized. I pray that not only are we going to study these verses over the weeks to come, but that you are going to let them abide in you. Where you can call these verses up over and over again, that you cannot just read these verses in monotone. They are emotional. I want you to just hear them deliberately, hear them passionately and when you speak them. You speak them that way with a lot of plocid to it. Listen to these words in v35.

Hebrews 10 v 35-36 (NIV – New International Version)

35 So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. 36 You need to persevere….

I want everybody to say you need to persevere. [crowd repeats, ‘you need to persevere.’] Yeah I want you to nearly spit on somebody close to you. I want to hear…..”

Chris Rosebrough, “Wow Hebrews 10 is just chocked full of gospel and the only thing I am hearing from Beth Moore so far is law. The thing I have to do. Yet the confidence spoken of in Hebrews 10 is based upon what Christ has done for us. Hmmm….we continue…..”

Beth Moore, “You need to persevere. Say it again [crowd repeats, ‘you need to persevere.’] Now say it to….”

Chris Rosebrough, “Yep law lots and lots of law, from a text that is clearly gospel.”

Beth Moore, “Now say it to another you need to persevere.

[crowd repeats, ‘you need to persevere.’]

            Hebrews 10 v 36 (NIV – New International Version)

36So that when you have done the will of God, you will…..

It does not say, ‘You may,’ it does not say, ‘Pray that you might.’ It says, ‘you absolutely will.’ It is stated as an assurance. It is stated as a promise that….

Hebrews 10 v 36

36 If you will persevere in your confidence, you will receive what God has promised you.

Chris Rosebrough, “No that is a supreme twist. Notice the conditional sentence.

Hebrews 10 v 36

36 If you persevere in your confidence, then you will receive a reward.

That is the nature of law talk. Okay it says this…..

Hebrews 10 v 36 (ESV – English Standard Version)

36 Therefore do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.

It doesn’t say, ‘If you persevere in your confidence, then you will have a great reward.’ It says…..

Hebrews 10 v 36 (ESV – English Standard Version)

36Therefore do not throw away your confidence.

Confidence in what? In the shed blood of Christ, His work on the cross for you, which has a great reward. That is the gospel. She just twisted this text and by the way this is kind of her technique that I have noticed as I have been reviewing her stuff lately is that through her machine gun cadence, through her rapid fire – hitting you, hitting you, what you notice that if you slow it down she changes things as she repeats them. So that this text which starts off as

Hebrews 10 v 36

36 Don’t throw away your confidence

Ends up as,

Hebrews 10 v 36

36 If you don’t throw away your confidence, then you will have a great reward.

Interesting technique, but the problem is that this is a legalistic twisting and misapplying of the text. This is bad stuff we are hearing here.

Beth Moore, “These are dangerous scriptures to the kingdom of darkness. Dangerous scriptures and if we would receive what we have to learn over the weeks to come, let me tell you something we will be transformed in the way we see our daily walk and I can’t think of any verses. If you have never begun to memorize scriptures, start right here. I can’t think of any verses that would have more daily power in your life than to here. If we are in Christ, then His Spirit abides in us and we are never to throw away our confidence, because it will be richly rewarded.

We need to persevere. Everybody say you need to persevere. [Crowd repeats, ‘you need to persevere.’]

Chris Rosebrough, “Notice all the law talk here again. This is all on you. This is law. Did I mention there was law in here?”

Beth Moore, “We need to persevere so that when we have done the will of God, we will receive what He has promised.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Wow rather than we will receive what was promised, because of the confidence we have in the shed blood of Christ and that we are in Him. That we fulfil this by faith, now this is all law. Wow breathtaking to behold and we have barely scratched the surface of this sermon / lecture / speech / television show. I am not sure what to call it.”

Beth Moore, “It were a personal testimony, why this is so dear to me. When I have an opportunity to speak to you or speak at an event on the road or have an opportunity to teach on a Tuesday night back in the Houston area. I usually choose things that are speaking to me in my own present relationship with Christ. That is what I am going to be passionate about.

I am a needy woman. I am always desperate for something. I have got, I am constantly challenged with living beyond what I am able to do and I know you are as well, where all of us are overwhelmed. There is that moving that says why can’t you be just whelmed?

Why do you always have to be overwhelmed? Everybody know what I am talking about? I never can just be whelmed. I am always overwhelmed about everything. I am always overwhelmed and so you know I am really having to count on God so. I have got my own current thing going with Him. I don’t know what your journey is like but I have got to have Him in own my life. So I don’t just prepare messages and come give them to you. I have got my own thing going with Him and so most of what I prepare comes out of my own personal relationship with Him.

This is one of those times in particular. Because about a year and a half ago, the enemy started being really tricky with me and I could not define it for months. But something was just off and it was all in my sense of competence and confidence. Strangely it started in one area. But let me tell you this is….”

Chris Rosebrough, “What? Alright so this is a personal testimony about how things were off regarding her area of confidence. That is not what Hebrews 10 is about.”

Beth Moore, “But let me tell you this is how the human mind and heart and it is natural state works and it is certainly how the enemy works. Because it really started where I started getting kind of a hit on my confidence in one area and then it started bleeding….”

Chris Rosebrough, “A hit on your confidence in one area? The confidence that is talked about in Hebrews 10 is a confidence about entering into the presence of God, because of the shed blood of Christ. It has nothing to do with any areas of your life, except for that one specific area. Confidence to enter God’s presence because you have been, your sins have been forgiven by Christ’s shed blood on the cross. The confidence spoken of in Hebrews 10 has nothing to do with confidence in anything other else in your life. This is a supreme twisting of Hebrews 10.”

Beth Moore, “Because it really started where I started getting kind of a hit on my confidence in one area and then it started bleeding into every single other area of my life, until I was I could not keep it leashed in. It was like well you know I need to keep this at bay right here. Only it wouldn’t stay there. Then it went over here in this part of my relational life and this part of my work life and I got to where I was having you know I have always got nervous before I speak. I don’t know some people say that they do not, I don’t understand them. I don’t get that. But I don’t want…..”

Chris Rosebrough, “Okay typical American evangelical talking about themselves, her she is talking about herself and see everyone is sitting there going, ‘Oh this is you know because she is what I want to be. This will be my story will be like her story, so then I can get up and tell my story as if it is the biblical story.’

It isn’t she started by taking two verses of scripture out of context, turning them into law when they were clearly gospel and now she is talking about herself and people are sitting there going, ‘Oh wow look the very talented speaking woman of God,’ all I see is a very talented and gifted communicator who is twisting and misapplying and not correctly teaching God’s Word at all.

Beth Moore“But I don’t want to feel what I feel, but it is a daunting overwhelming task. But about a year and a half ago, it began to be more than that. I just was really taking a hit and feeling a fair amount of extra fear and extra anxiety and extra self doubt and wondering if God was you know finishing up with me and all of these kinds of things and yet I would go and the spirit would pour out, but I would still ask myself the same questions when I got back in. ‘Is this almost over?’ You know I can’t tell you how I took a hit in the area of my confidence.”

Chris Rosebrough, “That would be the area of your self-confidence which is not what Hebrews 10 talks about at all.”

Beth Moore, “And finally it was like, ‘Duh how long does it take us to figure out, that this is an attack?’ If we are being hit in the areas of our effectiveness, then we ought to know. We ought to know in three days. That is no longer hormones. Anybody hear what I am saying? That is no longer somebody…..”

Chris Rosebrough, “I have idea what she is referring to. I am a guy, I have no feelings.”

Beth Moore, “That is no longer somebody annoying at work. By this time if it is getting repetitive and if it is starting to jump in this area and that area. Something is up, but it took me a while to get onto it. I am going to tell you something, I have found this verse. I have seen it before, but it came back to my recollection and I thought you know what I demand in Jesus name my confidence back.”

Chris Rosebrough, “What? ‘I demand in Jesus name that I get my confidence back?’ Oh we are just completely off-roading here. We are not even remotely close to biblical territory at this point. This is foreign country, if you would.”

Beth Moore, “You do not get to do this! No you do not have this authority. You do not have this right. God will tell me when He is done with me and He will kill me. He might know when I am sad. I don’t know if He, does He just lets us live, but He just doesn’t make any use of us. No I think when He is done, we will just die and then we will be over it and we will be with Him in glory to His name.

But for now I have to conclude He can’t be done if I am still here. So you know I am not taking this any longer. I can’t take it anymore and it went on I would say for about nine months. Now again I think maybe in my younger years, I might not have done this. I might have been more apt to shrink back. I didn’t only because I know I have been, I have walked with Him too long and I have been in ministry with Him too long to let my feelings dictate my acts of obedience. Like I…..

Chris Rosebrough, “Oh there we go more law. Yeah I have to give her a law violation citation. Good night. She sure is talking about herself a lot.”

Beth Moore, “Like I still do it and the enemy didn’t stop me from doing anything, He just stopped me from feeling much joy and victory in it. I would always wonder when someone said afterwards…..”

Chris Rosebrough, “Apparently the devil does his best work in causing us to feel things. Yeah all subjective here too, I mean this has the appearance of being biblical teaching, but it is not.”

Beth Moore, “I would always wonder when someone said afterwards boy that really spoke to them. I would think to myself, ‘I don’t know how. I don’t even know how that got out in four words.’ You know so you understand what I am saying, anybody I wonder today, because I have to believe God times these things for us and has divinely ordained that we would have these moments together. I wonder has anybody taken a little hit on their confidence lately, anybody?”

Chris Rosebrough, “Are you serious? This is not what Hebrews 10 is about, ‘all of you out have you subjectively felt like you have had feelings where your self-confidence has taken a hit lately? Yes I feel that way too.’ I am a man so I don’t have any feelings. But just play along, ‘oh well then I have got a solution for you. My new, my brand new revelation that isn’t really from God’s Word, but I will make it look like it is from God. Because God cares about your self-confidence,’ oh brother….”

Beth Moore, “Because perhaps you are wondering why on earth we have trash can on stage. Perhaps you have been thinking that someone at life outreach accidently left the trash can in the studio and that we did not see it. But actually it is here because I have come to tell you that we are trashing some things we need to pull out of the can. Pull out of the can.”

Chris Rosebrough, “This sounds like such brave biblical teaching, but I don’t even know what she is talking about…..”

Beth Moore, “And we are treasuring some things we need to trash. So we are going to focus on what is in that trash can and where the enemy has talked us into trashing things that are treasures to us, things that are our rights of sonship and daughtership and listen carefully to me. Your confidence in Christ is your right. It….”

Chris Rosebrough, “Really? I don’t even know what she is talking about. Let’s take a look at the apostle Paul and how he handled confidence as far as his own confidence. Paul writing in Philippians chapter 3, starting at v2 says this…..

Philippians 3 v 2-11 (ESV – English Standard Bible)

Look out for the dogs, look out for the evildoers, look out for those who mutilate the flesh. For we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh— though I myself have reason for confidence in the flesh also. If anyone else thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more: circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee;

as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, blameless. But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ

and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith— 10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.

The apostle Paul basically said that if anyone had reason for confidence in his own flesh that self-confidence, it was him and yet he considered all of his righteousness and his confidence in himself to be doo doo. That he might be found not having a righteousness of his own that comes from obedience to The Law, but the righteousness that is by faith in Jesus Christ. I am not very hopeful that Beth Moore is going to get to that kind of confidence.

Beth Moore, “It is your right and you must insist on it and you must not put up with that kind of hit on your confidence and you are going to be able to determine as we talk through this, what that means and what that doesn’t mean. But for me it was kind of a slow bleed. I think had it been a sudden burst, I might have recognized it, but it was just a slow bleed. It was something that would, I would think well it was just a mood. Only then it would go on for days and then I would find myself in all sorts of…. ”

Chris Rosebrough, “Has she considered hormone replacement therapy? You know just asking.”

Beth Moore, “Only then it would go on for days and then I would find myself in all sorts of self doubt and self loathing and questioning and wondering and fear and anxiety and it is just a slow bleed that is just one day I looked up and thought, ‘You know what woman you are losing your confidence. What is wrong with you? Who are you believing?’

I wonder has yours been like a slow leak. It maybe that today you realise that is what is wrong. I haven’t really been able to put my finger on it. But I have lost my confidence, some things have happened and somehow I just awaken and realise that I don’t have it any longer. For somebody else it might not be a slow leak, it might be a sudden break. In other words something might have happened to cause you all of a sudden to lose your confidence.

It could be a number of things maybe a spouse’s affair or a boyfriend’s betrayal or a sudden rejection of some kind. It could be a foolish decision that you made. I know what it is like. I have made ten thousand of them. I know what it is like to think ‘You know what you don’t deserve anything good. Look at your track record to just you know things….’”

Chris Rosebrough, “Yeah that actually is true. Look at your track record. You are a sinner. You don’t deserve anything good. Doesn’t that tell you something about the grace and mercy of God in Christ? This is oh man why is this woman so popular? She does not know how to properly handle God’s Word and she is not qualified to teach. It is I mean if this isn’t proof, then I don’t know what is.”

Beth Moore, “Look at your track record to just you know things. Look back and think I have embarrassed myself anybody? And so now I have lost my confidence. Maybe the flop of an effort, maybe you really, maybe it was something at work, maybe it was something in your serving life or your relational life that you really put some effort into and it is just nothing like thinking, ‘I tried hard with that.’

There is other times when we know where we have just slid by the seat of our pants on something and it may not have gone well, but we think to ourselves, ‘Well you know listen, if I have got out of that alive. I was doing pretty well. But there are other times we try hard on something and maybe it flopped. Maybe a sudden job loss or a loss of position, just epidemic and the financial crisis that we are living in right now. These are times when that can really give us…..”

Chris Rosebrough, “When we read Hebrews 10, did it have anything to do with this type of confidence? Yep no not at all, none nothing she is twisting God’s Word badly. This is not Christian teaching at all.”

Beth Moore, “These are times when that can really give us a huge hit in the area of our confidence and then it follows us to the next interview and am I making any sense to anybody? And to the next…..”

Chris Rosebrough, “You are making no biblical sense at all.”

Beth Moore, “And to the next interview and the next interview. Because now we have got nothing to take with us and they are not sure we can do the job. So you see how you what a cycle that it gets us into, to have a loss of confidence. Maybe you are a singer and you have lost your voice for crying out loud, anything that suddenly makes you feel less valuable and as a result you realise somewhere along the way I have trashed my confidence.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Okay need to have a musical interlude here. This particular sermon well it is not about what The Bible actually teaches. It is about something else.”

[Plays music]

            Singer, “It is all about me ring a ling….”

Salesman, “It is all about you Now the greatest collection of me worship ever assembled on one CD.”

Singer, “Now I lift my name on high….”

Salesman, “All twenty songs all about you.”

Singer, “How I have love to sing my praises. I exalt me. I exalt me and I exalt me…..”

Salesman, “This amazing collection is great to share with friends, if you have any. Everyone can join in the worship with you, for you and about you. Because you are unique and you love you.”

Singer, “There is none like me and no one else can do anything like I do…..”

Salesman, “All this for only $19.95, operators are standing by to serve you.”

Singer, “And I am why I sing and I am why I live…..”

Salesman, “If you order now you will also receive a second CD of your all time favourites.”

Singer, “And I am why I sing…..”

Salesman, “Call 1 800 me, me me or order online at http://www.memyselfandI.com.

Singer, “Oh come let us adore me. Oh come let us adore me.

Salesman, “Call today because no one can praise you like you.”

Singer, “How great I am.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Yep that is what this – it is not a sermon – this lecture, this television presentation is all about. It is all about you and the reason why she quoted those two verses was to create the allusion that this is biblical teaching. It is not.”

Beth Moore, “Somebody else is going to tell me today that you never had any to start with and I get that. I really do get that. I totally understand. Let me say to you first of all, are you in Christ? Because once you receive the LORD Jesus Christ, His very Spirit, not a spirit….”

Chris Rosebrough, “Man here we go. Pelagian heresy again….”

Beth Moore, “Let me say to you first of all, are you in Christ? Because once you receive the LORD Jesus Christ, His very Spirit, not a spirit, His Spirit (Romans 8) comes and takes up residence in us. He literally, His competence and His confidence comes to dwell inside of us. So yes we do have…..”

Chris Rosebrough, “What? His confidence comes to dwell inside of us and you say that Romans teaches that. Hang on a second here. I have got to back the video up, just a second.”

Beth Moore, “Somebody else is going to tell me today that you never had any to start with and I get that. I really do get that. I totally understand. Let me say to you first of all, are you in Christ?”

Chris Rosebrough, “Uh huh yeah…..”

Beth Moore, “Because once you receive the LORD Jesus Christ, His very Spirit, not a spirit, His Spirit (Romans 8) comes and takes up residence in us.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Romans 8 v 9-11. Hang on I want to see if this says anything about we get Jesus confidence. Romans 8 v 9-11….”

            Romans 8 v 9-11 (ESV – English Standard Version)

You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

Nothing there about us receiving His competence and confidence. Oh boy this is really bad.”

Beth Moore, “He literally, His competence and His confidence comes to dwell inside of us. So yes we….”

Chris Rosebrough, “No that is not what Romans says. Can you actually provide a verse that says that Jesus confidence comes to dwell inside of us? I would appreciate just a reference there from the Word that, I mean you are going to make the assertion that God’s Word teaches that. Don’t you think you ought to you know show us in The Bible, a clear passage that says that?”

Beth Moore, “So yes we do have it. We do have it. We have Christ, we have the confidence and the competence that we need. But what can happen is this if we receive Christ as our Saviour, but we never recognize and by faith believe Him to also be our healer and our restorer. Then we just stay as crackers as we were when He got here.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Oh wow I didn’t see that in the fine print. Where is that small six point fine print in The Bible. Well let me back this up. This condition I had no idea even existed. Hang on a second here. Let’s see…..”

Beth Moore, “Because once you receive the LORD Jesus Christ, His very Spirit, not a spirit, His Spirit (Romans 8) comes and takes up residence in us. He literally, His competence and His confidence comes to dwell inside of us. So yes we do have it. We do have it. We have Christ, we have the confidence and the competence that we need. But what can happen is this if we receive Christ as our Saviour, but we never recognize and by faith believe Him to also be our healer and our restorer. Then we just stay as crackers as we were when He got here.”

Chris Rosebrough, “This is just rank heresy. That is just blasphemy what she said. It is not even biblically true.”

Beth Moore, “Does that make any sense? So it just bleeds out everywhere, where we say it just bleeds out everywhere. Because we can’t keep any confidence in there, because we have never trusted Him to put three pieces of our lives back together. Does this make any sense to anybody? So either we just keep…..”

Chris Rosebrough, “Notice how the gospel is now law. You had better pay close attention to the fine print on receiving Jesus as your personal LORD and Saviour. Because if you didn’t actually get the other clauses of Him being your healer and whatever and you don’t trust Him for that too, well then you are just going to stay cracked. Oh boy….”

Beth Moore, “We have all these cracks over just in pieces and we just keep waiting for heaven when we are going to feel a whole lot better. But we might have to live quite a while before then and we were supposed to have some effectiveness on earth amen. I mean we are supposed to be effective here. We are supposed to be leaders here and servants here and conspicuous here and profoundly effective in our spheres of influence as believers in Christ. We are to be the salt and we are to be the light. We can’t be any of that without our God confidence. So what ….”

Chris Rosebrough, “Really, oh man anyone want to come to this woman’s defence? I don’t advise it, because I mean this is just indefensible what she is teaching. The fact that these women don’t have an open Bible and are challenging this is even more troubling.”

Beth Moore, “So whatever it maybe, what is it that has caused us to trash our confidence? [To obtain information…..]

Chris Rosebrough, “Okay hang on a second here, I have got to fast forward through the commercial.”

[To obtain information on Beth’s teaching materials and for her speaking schedule visit us online at www.lifetoday.org]

James Robison, “Oh boy I pray with all my heart you grasp what she is saying because there is a leadership crisis.”

Chris Rosebrough, “What? Jesus Christ tells us in Luke 24 to go and proclaim repentance and the forgiveness of sins in Jesus name and we are supposed to pray with all of our heart that God helps us with a leadership crisis. What are you guys smoking over there? Good night.

James Robison, “There is a leadership crisis in this country and I know I am talking to you in Australia and in the United Kingdom and Canada. So you know I am not going to try and point fingers. But I am telling you here in The United States we have got a leadership crisis that begins first in the home.”

Chris Rosebrough, “We have a biblical teaching crisis. We have a heresy problem. It is time for us to throw these false teachers out and not tolerate them anymore. This is ridiculous.”

James Robision, “But it is also the churches. I mean we have got some people who are up talking, but not leading and inspiring people to lead in their community.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Oh for crying out loud. Oh no we have got leaders that are up talking in the church. But they are not inspiring other people to lead in the community. Oh no the bane of humanity, it is the end of western civilization.”

James Robison, “And we need you know Beth talked about us being salt and light. That is what Jesus said. We are supposed to…..”

Chris Rosebrough, “Yeah I don’t think that is what He meant. Look it up in context. The Sermon on the Mount, start at Matthew 5 and end somewhere at Matthew 7 & 8 you know, who cares?”

James Robison, “We are supposed to make a difference on the earth. You know….”

Chris Rosebrough, “Oh Hitler made a difference. Oh my goodness. What is this? I pray I am in a bad dream.”

James Robison, “Just pray about it. The issues we impact. Jesus said the gates of hell shall of destruction of captivity of bondage. Those gates will not prevail against the believers. The church that hear God and respond to His direction.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Yeah and it is built upon confessing Him, not our confidence.”

James Robison, “And I am telling you in a community, in a constitutional republic which we have with democratic opportunity to vote and select. Boy we need to be salt and light more than ever. The church needs to stand and by the way….”

Chris Rosebrough, “Confusion of the two kingdoms too wow.”

James Robison, “The church needs to stand and by the way if we really know God, His love will be in our heart and let me just say…..”

Chris Rosebrough, “Law, law, law, law, law.”

James Robison, “You who watch us all over the world. One thing I see, I see the love of God. I see what I call humanitarian concern. Just human interests, that is good. But I see a great compassion that comes from God and there is not one thing we ever do that is more exciting to people, than to give fresh water to people who don’t have it, a billion people approximately do not have access to clean water and they are drinking contaminated water and they live sick or it kills them.”

Chris Rosebrough, “And if it is killing them are you giving them the gospel, telling them of Christ and His death on the cross for their sins? Or are you giving them this Beth Moore garbage about them having to receive Jesus as Saviour, healer and something else? Otherwise they stay cracked. This is a cracked theology for sure.”

James Robison, “It kills children suddenly. I want you to listen, because you are going to hear the heart of God from all over the world communicated. Just listen to the voice of God through people you will know, from all the different places in the world where the…..”

Chris Rosebrough, “I listen to the voice of God in His Word and when His Word is proclaimed and taught correctly in context, focusing on Christ and Him crucified. Wow this is quite a show isn’t it?”

James Robison, “It is great. Watch closely…..”

[Fast forwards audio]

Chris Rosebrough, “Okay this is a commercial for his humanitarian aid. Alright let me fast forward. We are going to listen to part 2 of the Don’t Throw Away Your Confidence lecture from Beth Moore.”

Beth Moore, “We are meant to be God competent, God confident servants of Christ. Because listen you may say to me, ‘But you know Beth the thing about it is you know I never got any education.’ Christ can make the simplest person stunningly wise. He can cause. His Word says at the end of The Gospel of Luke that He opened their understanding to the scriptures and literally He can just like crack open, supernaturally crack open your understanding of His living Word.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Well apparently this hasn’t happened to you Beth because you are twisting His Word.”

Beth Moore, “He has given every single one of us, He has given you the capacity to do something or some things really well. You hear what I am saying to you? Really well….”

Chris Rosebrough, “Yeah it is still all about me.”

Beth Moore, “You have been created with brilliance. Because you were created in the image of God and I was created in the image of God. Every single one of us has been created with areas of brilliance.”

Chris Rosebrough, “What about the fall? That we are all by nature sinful, dead in trespasses in sins, I mean this is a fine story that you are telling. But it is kind of missing the whole major point that the scriptures make that we are dead in trespasses in sins. This is the kind of stuff that scratches itching ears, puffs up egos, makes us confident in ourselves, rather than terrifies us and makes us contrite because of our sinfulness and our rebellion against God. This is ego boosting for sure. The scripture is scripturally sound? Not even close.”

Beth Moore, “Are we operating out of those? Where is our confidence? Because see this is a really big agenda to the enemy. Because if we have all this gifting, but we never have the confidence to use it – we are of absolutely no threat whatsoever. So that is all he has to do, just make sure that we never have enough confidence to be the people and use the gifts that God has given us.

I learned a new term recently, it was it is called dumpster diving. Dumpster diving, have you ever heard of it? This is what thieves do to steal identities. They go through trash and they go through dumpsters to see if they can find signatures and see if they can find account numbers. What they can find in the trash to steal identities. This is exactly what the enemy is doing. He is looking for what we have trashed and no longer have any confidence in. Because right…..”

Chris Rosebrough, “Oh you have got to be, this is terrible. This is not even biblical. Satan the big identity theft thief, oh come on….”

Beth Moore, “Because right he is dumpster diving and he is trying to steal our identity. Now he cannot do it, but if he can make us think he is doing it, we are not going to operate out of it anyway. So it still works.”

Chris Rosebrough, “I don’t even know what any of this means. Oh no it is Satan the big identity thief who is trying to steal my identity, based upon the confidence I have thrown into the trash. Gasp oh no who will save us? Oh give me a break.”

Beth Moore, “So here is what we are doing in this two part series. We are going to learn how to dig our confidence out of the trash. Now I just need to know so I can see how we are doing so far. Could anybody…..”

Chris Rosebrough, “Spiritual dumpster diving, all law too.”

Beth Moore, “Could anybody so far use this lesson? Anybody…..”

Chris Rosebrough, “Now I can’t use anything here. This is just pure unadulterated false teaching, actually it would be adulterated. This is pure adulterated. It is yeah, this is spiritual prostitution.”

Beth Moore, “Anybody because the enemy is tricky and where the enemy is not tricky, the human mind, the human heart in its natural state will believe any lie. So if we had no enemy whatsoever of our souls and Satan did not exist, we would still have plenty of problems and our confidence would still take a hit. Because…..”

Chris Rosebrough, “Oh no not that, more terrible all these people out there who are being oppressed by the devil and their confidence is taking a hit. Oh who will save us?”

Beth Moore, “Because our hearts are just on their own in their natural state, deceitful above all things. We believe anything. So we are going to learn how to dig our confidence out of the trash and it begins with this. We are going to go through a number of different of things. But number one is this if we are going to dig this confidence out of the trash, we have got to number one stop confusing confidence with pride.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Yeah that is huh? Where is this in The Bible? I am sure we will find out.”

Beth Moore, “Stop confusing confidence with pride. One of the biggest drawbacks to the most spiritual people, they can hear a lesson like this is to think, ‘You know what she is just talking us into being proud and arrogant.’ Nothing could be further from the truth. If God…..”

Chris Rosebrough, “No I just think you are preaching nonsense. Who cares what your points are? This isn’t even biblical.”

Beth Moore, “If God could honestly get through to us and make us understand the difference between confidence and arrogance, let me tell you things would start happening with a bang in each one of our lives.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Really, where does it say that in The Bible?”

Beth Moore, “If we could ever get through our heads this is not pride. This is confidence and they are two completely different things. We will never be able to accomplish the will of God in our lives without the kind of confidence that he is talking about. That is exactly what the scripture says. So….”

Chris Rosebrough, “Really, where? We have, I have yet to see you properly handle a single text of scripture.”

Beth Moore, “(Hebrews 10 v 35-36 – NIV – New International Version) 35 ‘So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what He has promised.’ In other words….”

Chris Rosebrough, “Law, law lots and lots of law. [Telephone] ‘I am sorry the number you have dialled is not in service at this time.’ Yep this is not connected to God’s Word at all.”

Beth Moore, “In other words it is going to take us having the confidence in perseverance. We are going to have to persevere in our confidence to do the will of God and receive what He has promised. So I promise you this according to the authority of scripture, you cannot do God’s will without God’s confidence. You cannot.”

Chris Rosebrough, “That is blasphemy. That was just, what you just heard is straight up blasphemy. This is what it means to take God’s name in vain.”

Beth Moore, “You cannot and we are confusing, we are calling our low self-esteem and our self…..”

Chris Rosebrough, “Oh no low self-esteem. Oh this is terrible I mean oh the humanity.”

Beth Moore, “You cannot and we are confusing, we are calling our low self-esteem and our self-loathing and self condemnation, we are calling all of this humility. That is not humility. Humility is keeping before us at every moment and at all times who has given us our breath, our ability to operate in any giftedness. Our salvation, our redemption that we know who is God and we know we are not Him.

That is humility right there and we are servants of the living God. What we are talking about with confidence, what with this self loathing thing, this whole self hatred thing. If we are thinking that is humility, anything that has got you where you can’t operate in the fullness of the Spirit is an attack and it is deception. It is not humility.”

Chris Rosebrough, “So anything that attacks your confidence so that you can’t operate in the fullness of the Spirit is an attack of the devil and it is yeah uh hmmm. Bible verse please Beth, not that you actually would correctly handle it. But I mean it would be nice if you made an effort.”

Beth Moore, “And here is where the balance is because boy I am with you I don’t want to misunderstand this. I don’t want to get this…..”

Chris Rosebrough, “Oh too late. Way too late there, yeah as far as understanding what God’s Word says yeah that, it is not happening at all.”

Beth Moore, “I don’t want to get this wrecked up, because the one thing I can tell you will set us up for a fall is pride. Every single time pride goes before a fall. But I do want you to see the balance here and if you are taking down notes or jotting down any of our scripture verses. I want you to hear these. I want you to put side by side, just these two addresses and you can look them up later John 15 v 5 and Philippians 4 v 3.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Hold on a second here John 15 v 5 and Philippians 4 v 13. Two verses out of context just stuck together. Well that is what she is suggesting here. Hang on a second. Let’s see what the false prophetess is having us do here. So when we look up these addresses we can know what points she is trying to make.

John 15 v 5 (ESV – English Standard Version)

I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.

Okay that is great and then Philippians 4 v 3. Hang on a second here.

Philippians 4 v 3 (ESV – English Standard Version)

Yes, I ask you also, true companion, help these women, who have laboured side by side with me in the gospel together with Clement

That can’t be the verse. Yeah I happen to have heard her incorrectly hang on a second here. I have got to back it up. Make sure I don’t take her out of context.

Beth Moore, “I want you to put side by side, just these two addresses and you can look them up later John 15 v 5 and Philippians 4 v 13.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Oh Philippians 4 v 13 ah that is my problem. Hang on.

             Philippians 4 v 13 (ESV – English Standard Version)

13 I can do all things through him who strengthens me.

Classic evangelical proof text without any context. Let’s continue…..

Beth Moore, “This is going to be our balance right here. John 15 v 5 and Philippians 4 v 13. This will be our balance for what you and I are going to call humble confidence and it is going to be the balance of John 15 v 5 and Philippians 4 v 13.

John 15 v 5 (NIV – New International Version)

Christ says, “Apart from me you can do nothing.”

But then He turns around and tells us through the pen of the apostle Paul in Philippians 4 v 13.

Philippians 4 v 13

13 ‘Through me you can do anything.’

There you have got it. That is your humble confidence.

Chris Rosebrough, “No that is not what Philippians 4 v 13 says. It doesn’t say, ‘In Christ we can do everything or anything.’ It says…..

Philippians 4 v 13 (ESV – English Standard Version)

13 I can do all things through him who strengthens me.

Oh man. Sorry I didn’t expect it to be this bad. I mean this is just so patently false, I don’t know how anyone actually takes this woman seriously.

Beth Moore, “There you have got it. That is your humble confidence. Now without Christ I can do absolutely nothing. Nothing of any value. Nothing that is going to last. Nothing for eternity. Nothing that is going to produce much fruit, absolutely nothing. I can do nothing apart from Him. But with Him I can do all things. I can do all things. That is one of the first scriptures that we teach our children, if you were able to raise your children in the faith. It is one of the first things we try to teach them.

Philippians 4 v 13

13 I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

Chris Rosebrough, “We read practically all of Philippians 3. Why don’t we read some of Philippians 4 and put this in context and see what happens. Starting at the tail end. Hang on a second Philippians 3 & 4. Okay let me continue where Paul, where I left off with Paul. Philippians 3 v 8, we will get some context.

Philippians 3 v 8-21 (ESV – English Standard Version)

Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith— 10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.

12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. 13 Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.15 Let those of us who are mature think this way, and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal that also to you. 16 Only let us hold true to what we have attained.

17 Brothers, join in imitating me, and keep your eyes on those who walk according to the example you have in us. 18 For many, of whom I have often told you and now tell you even with tears, walk as enemies of the cross of Christ. 19 Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things. 20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.

Philippians 4 v 1-13 (ESV – English Standard Version)

1 Therefore, [In light of all this gospel stuff, now we have the ‘therefore.’] Therefore my brothers, whom I love and long for, my joy and crown, stand firm thus in the Lord, my beloved. I entreat Euodia and I entreat Syntyche to agree in the Lord. Yes, I ask you also, true companion, help these women, who have laboured side by side with me in the gospel together with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.

Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, rejoice. Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand; do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honourable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. What you have learned and received and heard and seen in me—practice these things, and the God of peace will be with you.

10 I rejoiced in the Lord greatly that now at length you have revived your concern for me. You were indeed concerned for me, but you had no opportunity. 11 Not that I am speaking of being in need, for I have learned in whatever situation I am to be content. 12 I know how to be brought low, and I know how to abound. In any and every circumstance, I have learned the secret of facing plenty and hunger, abundance and need. 13 I can do all things through him who strengthens me. 14 Yet it was kind of you to share my trouble.

Wow you put Philippians 4 v 13 into context and it is not saying that we can do everything. He is speaking in context about being in need and in want and kind of persevering through that suffering and need. Nothing there about confidence whatsoever, wow this teaching from Beth Moore this is dangerous, wickedly dangerous stuff.”

Beth Moore, “Philippians 4 v 13, but you know what I decided this week? I decided grownups need to hear that verse again. Sometimes you just need to go back and taste cornflakes for the first time again. This is one of those times because we need our confidence back. Our country as a nation, we are losing some confidence. Because of crisis around us, it is time for us to get our confidence back in Christ. We can do all things through Christ who strengthens us. That is a great word if you are staring at it in your scriptures.

Hebrews 10 v 35 (NIV – New International Version)

35 So do not throw away your confidence….

It is a wonderful Greek word and the Greek you would say it like this parrhēsia παρρησίαν it is the Greek word for confidence and it is used in Acts 4 v 13. There are going to be a couple of places that we are going to….”

Chris Rosebrough, “Who taught this woman Greek? Somehow I don’t think she really knows it.”

Beth Moore, “There are going to be a couple of places that we are going to have a look in our series together. Where we will see the same word maybe translated a different way. But the same Greek word so we can find out what it means. So I am going to sit tight here and in Hebrews 10, but I am going to turn for a few minutes to Acts 4 v 13. I am so glad it is still there.

There is just nothing like being up in the throes of teaching when you realise that you have written down the wrong address for the next verse. It is the most upsetting thing you can imagine. I have told many groups that on the way to a verse that I have not just double checked just right before the session together. I always ask God, ‘Please make it be there, just for now. I am just asking you. I don’t care if it is….it is no big deal to you. Put it there now and we can move it back later.’ So He is so faithful isn’t He? He is so faithful.

Acts 4 v 13 as it is Peter and John they have been, they have appeared before the Sanhedrin and it says in v13…..

Acts 4 v 13 (NIV – New International Version)

13 When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus.

Look at that word because it is using a Greek word you can’t see it, because it is going to use a different English word to translate it. That is where it gets confusing to us. No language translates perfectly into another. So we are going to see it translated a couple of different ways. But it says…..

Acts 4 v 13 (ESV – English Standard Version)

13 When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus.

That word courage is our same word parrhēsia παρρησίαν. It is a word that means confidence in Hebrews 10, here is what I want to tell you…..”

Chris Rosebrough, “Hold on a second here. I feel like she is pulling a fast one. parrhēsia παρρησίαν the Greek word it from BIDAG.

1)    a use of speech that conceals nothing and passes over nothing, outspokenness, frankness, or plainness and let’s see.

2)    openness to the public

3)    a state of boldness and confidence, courage, confidence, boldness, or fearlessness,

Okay what were they confident and bold about?

Let’s take a look. Let’s add a little context.

Acts 4 v 5-12 (ESV – English Standard Version)

On the next day their rulers and elders and scribes gathered together in Jerusalem, with Annas the high priest and Caiaphas and John and Alexander, and all who were of the high-priestly family. And when they had set them in the midst, they inquired, “By what power or by what name did you do this?”

Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers of the people and elders, if we are being examined today concerning a good deed done to a crippled man, by what means this man has been healed, 10 let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead—by him this man is standing before you well. 11 This Jesus is

the stone that was rejected by you, the builders,

which has become the cornerstone.

12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

That is interesting v13, now where Beth Moore is…..

Acts 4 v 13 (ESV – English Standard Version)

13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated, common men, they were astonished. And they recognized that they had been with Jesus.

What was Peter bold about? Proclaiming Christ crucified and risen. The one who healed the crippled man and the only one the name under which, God has ordained that He is the one the only name by which men must be saved. Confidence in the proclamation of the gospel, but that is not how Beth Moore is using it – she is basically pulling a fast one on you. Basically saying, ‘See the same Greek word here  for boldness or courage. Parrhēsia παρρησίαν is used also in Hebrews 10, you see that proves that see you can’t let your confidence be taken away from you. Uh hmm….”

Beth Moore, “Even though it is translated courage here Parrhēsia παρρησίαν means more than just courage. It certainly means courage you cannot have God confidence without courage. But it is not only courage. The two words are not perfectly synonymous. God confidence is courage and more. It is courage and it is competence. It is….”

Chris Rosebrough, “You don’t have any competence in God’s Word in original languages to be saying these statements.”

Beth Moore, “It is courage and if you were jotting this down we would you to put not only courage, but competence and not only competence, but conspicuousness and by…..”

Chris Rosebrough, “Really which Greek lexicon talks about courage, competence and conspicuousness as being attached to the Greek word Parrhēsia παρρησίαν? This is just absolute deceitfulness and people don’t catch because of the rapid fire way in which she presents here. She is inserting stuff in here that doesn’t make any sense. You don’t even need to know Greek if you just read the text in context. You know what their boldness and confidence was in? The gospel – in Christ.”

Beth Moore, “But conspicuousness and by that I mean God confidence makes God show in a human vessel every time. In other words if I am operating out of God confidence then He is showing in me. He is conspicuousness…..”

Chris Rosebrough, “This text doesn’t say anything about us operating in God confidence and I don’t care what Greek word you pull out of your hat.”

Beth Moore, “He is conspicuous in me, because He is causing me and He is causing you to do something you cannot do in your own humanity. You know it. He knows it. So it is a real high, it is a kind of high fiving with God. Because you know good and well that He is using to do something that you are incapable of doing. It doesn’t get better than that.”

Chris Rosebrough, “This just complete obfuscation. Seriously this isn’t biblical teaching. These are just flat out lies.”

Beth Moore, “I know that I know that has got to be Him. That cannot possibly be me. So it is courage yes. But it is also extreme competence and it is also making the Spirit of Christ conspicuous in us. It is that word that is also associated with faith. It comes out of a belief and confidence in Christ. So these are the things. It is courage that breeds competence and it is competence that breeds the conspicuousness. So these are…..”

Chris Rosebrough, “What? Notice we haven’t even had a true gospel nugget at this point.”

Beth Moore, “So these are the kinds of things that make up what we are calling this God confidence. So we are learning how to start digging our confidence out of the trash. How we can pull it out of the trash…..”

Chris Rosebrough, “Oh my goodness. I can’t believe this.”

Beth Moore, “And first of all we have seen number one was what we have got to quit confusing what?”

[Crowd says, ‘Confidence and pride.’]

Confidence and pride are not the same thing. They never have been. We want to repent of pride. We want to repent of every shred of arrogance. But they are not the same thing as confidence. Number two is this, this one is very important we have got to stop giving people power over us only God should have. If…..”

Chris Rosebrough, “All these women are saying amen. I don’t even know what this sentence means.”

Beth Moore, “If you and I are going to have God confidence we have got to stop giving people power over us only God should have.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Beth do you think that by pausing and reading it slower that somehow it is going to make more sense. Stop giving people power over us only God should have. What does that mean?”

Beth Moore, “Is anybody getting into that way, let me say it some of us listening today, some of us viewing today, some of us perhaps in the audience today let everybody trash our confidence. In other words just anybody, anything will just, I mean we just like stand by the trash can.

We just constantly next to every single person we encounter we just throw, we just throw or we assume before we even have an encounter. I might as well have it in my hand because I am going to throw. Anybody know what I am talking about? But others of us we just run back and forth. Like I don’t let everybody have access to my confidence. There are sometimes when I just get to say that you don’t fit. I am not wearing it. No I may not say it to them, but I am thinking, ‘No,’ in my head I am thinking, ‘No.’ Anybody know what I am talking about? I like to say it in two syllables….”

Chris Rosebrough, “No I don’t know what you are talking about. No…..”

Beth Moore, “No I may go no. It just depends, I have got to know what to say no to. So there are times though that it just somebody like for me it is going to be the people who have the most access to me, that can get to my confidence the most and listen they might not even want my confidence. I am letting them get to it. I need to know somebody is having as many problems as I am. I need a little compassion here.”

Chris Rosebrough, “If you are having this many problems I think you just really need to close The Bible and step away from that podium thing and stop teaching it altogether. Because you are completely butchering God’s Word.”

Beth Moore, “Act like you are having the same problem whether you are or not. But for me it is not everybody, but it is a few people I have really given some access. In other words I believe what they believe about me. So if begin to think this is what you think then I start playing it out I think that too.

I never can’t think somebody think let somebody else think something bad by themselves.”

Chris Rosebrough, “I think my ears are bleeding.”

Beth Moore, “I never can’t think somebody think let somebody else think something bad by themselves about me. I have to think, ‘I believe it too.’ Anybody and then what? It is constantly back over throwing away the confidence. Because we just keep letting something get to us over and over again. We keep giving somebody power that may not even want it. Not everybody that we are giving power to…..”

Chris Rosebrough, “Where is this big problem outlined for us in the scripture again? Oh that is right. It is not.”

Beth Moore, “Not everybody that we are giving power to, it is kind of power to that only got to them even wants it. Many of them are probably going, ‘Do not give me that. I don’t want that kind of access.’ Others of them love it, because it is power. It is power.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Okay I am hearing words and none of this is making any sense. This is what I am hearing at this point. [plays sound clip] Yeah that is yeah, that made more sense than her….”

Beth Moore, “You better open your eyes to see whether the person that keeps giving to you over and over again is enjoying it and get it in your head. Time you got your God confidence back. They don’t get to have it. Stop…..”

Chris Rosebrough, “How can they have something that isn’t even biblically real? I mean you are, you have invented this issue completely out of your head or this thing that we are supposed to have quote ‘God confidence.’ You know with the allusion that you are actually doing Bible teaching. Oh with a reference to the Greek.

It is not even taught in the scriptures and now we have to worry about somebody taking it from us. You know all these poor women in there are sitting there going, ‘Oh man I didn’t realise that I needed to have a God confidence. I just didn’t know and now she is telling me that I have been throwing it in the trash the whole time or even worse I have been giving this thing that I didn’t even know I had to somebody who didn’t even know that they were taking it. Did they have that scene for this problem?”

Beth Moore, “Stop it. Now here is this is a really big deal. So I want everybody to listen very carefully. This is not when to walk in and get another cup of coffee. If you are going to do that you just push past and come back to it. Because this very important here.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Oh I can only imagine…..”

Beth Moore, “Because we do not have to stop loving someone to stop letting them trash our confidence.”

Chris Rosebrough, “What I might just ah yeah…..

[plays audio clip – music plays] ‘You unlock this door with the key of imagination. Beyond it is another dimension, a dimension of sound, a dimension of sight, a dimension of mind.’

[Whistles] Yeah wow I don’t even know what this woman is talking about at this point. I think we have left the realm of sanity.”

Beth Moore, “Some people we need to just fight, just get out of our lives and not everyone will I be talking about your spouse when I say that. But some relationships we need to get out of and you know I don’t you don’t even have to sit back. If right now you are going, ‘I wonder if I have got one?’ You probably don’t.

If are you going, ‘Oh I know.’ You probably do. You know what I am saying? It is probably a new thought. If there is a relationship you are needing to get rid of this is probably not a new thought. God has probably been telling you for some time and so deal with it.”

Chris Rosebrough, “This is such an argument against women in the pulpit. I am I can see now why yeah.”

Beth Moore, “Deal with it. But there are a lot of other relationships, it is not the relationship we need to dump. It is that we need to quit letting them have access to trash our confidence. Does anybody know what I am saying to them?”

Chris Rosebrough, “No I really don’t know what you are talking about at all. This isn’t even biblical.”

Beth Moore, “We can, we don’t have to stop loving them or stop even being around them in order to quit trashing our confidence over them. Here is what I jotted down in my notes. Sometimes we end up breaking free from the loved one instead of just breaking free from our bondage to the loved one. I need to know somebody heard that.”

Chris Rosebrough, “[plays audio clip] Oh yeah I heard it loud and clear. I didn’t understand it.”

Beth Moore, “Okay because we will destroy a whole relationship. Now again some relationships need to be destroyed. But we will destroy a whole relationship…..”

Chris Rosebrough, “Yeah I agree the relationship that needs to be destroyed is everybody who is looking to this woman as a teacher. You consider her to be your biblical teacher. That relationship needs to be destroyed. This woman is not teaching God’s Word.”

Beth Moore, “But we will destroy a whole relationship instead of dealing with our bondage to the relationship. You don’t have to be addicted to the person. You can just have great affection for them, am I speaking anybody’s language today? I may just be talking to myself.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Go with the second one.”

Beth Moore, “Maybe it is just a lesson I needed. I will tell you I come out of need with you. I am telling you this because I have been here and not too terribly long ago, I want to love the person. I just don’t want to trash my confidence over the person. Anybody is that fair?”

Chris Rosebrough, “I don’t know. It is not biblical. You are not actually teaching God’s Word and yet you have an open Bible in this nice plexiglass little podium thing going on there. By the way I could of sworn I saw her blink. Just a minute ago.”

Beth Moore, “We can break free from our bondage to the loved one, without breaking free from the very cherished loved one herself or himself.”

[To obtain information….]

Chris Rosebrough, “Oh my goodness that was a complete train wreck and to think that this woman is like a multi bazillion dollar author, best selling and women are suck this stuff up as if it is the Word of God. Oh my goodness. Run flee if you have friends that are buying this stuff and reading this stuff and thinking this woman is actually teaching God’s Word.

I am telling you godly women out there who actually know The Bible, you need to stop your friends, sit them down and you need to challenge what they are hearing from this woman. This is not from God. This is complete subterfuge. This is bovine scatology that she is feeding to everybody and they are all thinking they are eating the Word of God. They are not. These are cow patties.

I don’t think there is anything else I can say or add to this. Good night. I mean she took clear gospel passages and turned them into the law. She is not qualified to be teaching. She is not qualified to teach Sunday School to kids who are in kindergarten. This is ridiculous, unbelievable. Folks I am a little frustrated. You have heard the gospel. You have heard me correcting her teaching all along and I need to remind you at this point.

We need your financial assistance in order to continue to bring Fighting For The Faith to you and to the world. Why? Because we are one of the few programmes out there that are actually doing the hard Berean work of comparing what people are saying in the name of God to the Word of God. I am sorry that I didn’t get to this woman sooner. I didn’t realise we had a six alarm fire on our hands.

This woman is not qualified to teach. I am going to make this available as a segment all by itself, available for download and for embedding. I want to let you know that. But I need to remind you we depend upon your generous financial gifts in order to continue to bring this radio outreach to you as well as to the world.

Will you partner with us so that we can continue getting the word out and basically doing this discernment Berean work for people, so that people will open their eyes to the fact that we have got a bunch of false teachers parading around on television in their homes, in their small group studies and that this is not okay. This is really dangerous stuff.

You could support us by visiting our website fightingforthefaith.com. Click on one of our buttons there we have one that says join our crew. When you join our crew it is a mere $6.95 a month that comes out automatically of your account and once we get to a thousand then we will be able to pay all of our bills month after month.

Which is kind of important and then of course if you would like to donate. You can fill in the amount you would like to donate. You can do so by clicking on the donate button or you can make your gift payable to Fighting For The Faith and send it to post office box, 508 Fishers Indiana, zip code 46038.

Well what do you think? We would love to get your feedback. You can email me my email address is talkback@fightingforthefaith.com or you can ask to be my friend on Facebook it is facebook.com/piratechristian or you can follow me on Twitter my name there @piratechristian.

Until tomorrow may God richly bless you in the grace and mercy won by Jesus Christ and vicarious death on the cross for all of your sins amen. I need some aspirin phew.