Fighting for the Faith With Chris Rosebrough – Joyce Meyer Waxes Word of Faith – part 2
Below is a transcript taken from Chris Rosebrough’s radio show podcast Fighting For The Faith Radio podcast which was originally broadcast on Tuesday July 16th 2013, which you can subscribe to on iTunes. I highly recommend you do this if you want to develop discernment.
You can also watch the video of Joyce Meyer’s sermon – Your Mouth and God’s Power > http://youtu.be/AdpJzngXKQg
Here is the video link for this transcript > http://youtu.be/CSVbb3iqM6A
[First segment – 00:22:54 – 00:23:41]
Chris Rosebrough, “But what we are going to do right now. We are going to pause. We are going to take our first break in just a minute and when we come back we are going to do part 2 of what we started yesterday with Joyce Meyer and yesterday’s programme I named the segment Joyce Meyer Waxes Word of Faith, something like that. You have heard the phrase waxes eloquent that is you know that was the idea behind the…although the title itself is a little bit weird. You read it and go huh what? Yeah afterwards I thought maybe I should have named it something different but too late now. That is what it is called.
So we are going to be doing Joyce Meyer Waxes Word of Faith part 2 today. We are going to back the tape up just a little bit, continue where left off with her false teaching.
[Second segment – 00:32:39 – 01:05:00]
Alright we are back. Warning all false doctrine is dangerous. But some doctrines damn, that is what scripture teaches. You teach a different gospel and a different god you are outside of Christianity period.
Alright let’s move on. We have a Joyce Meyer update and I received an email today from a listener who suggested that I change up my music when I do anything really to the Word of Faith heresy and after listening to his suggestion, I am going to go with his suggestion. So even though we are doing a Joyce Meyer update I would like to introduce to our new kind of over the top if you would Word of Faith heresy music update. This is Jonny Mercer – Accentuate The Positive. Here we go….
Jonny Mercer – Accentuate The Positive
You have got to accentuate the positive
Eliminate the negative
And latch on to the affirmative
Don’t mess with Mister In-Between
You have got to spread joy up to the maximum
Bring gloom down to the minimum
Have faith or pandemonium’s
Liable to walk upon the scene
To illustrate my last remark
Jonah in the whale, Noah in the ark
What did they do just when everything looked so dark?
(Man, they said “We had better accentuate the positive”)
(“Eliminate the negative”)
(“And latch on to the affirmative”)
Don’t mess with Mister In-Between
Yeah that is Jonny Mercer’s Accentuate the Positive. I think like I said we are going to have to be using that for future instalments whenever we do a Word of Faith heresy update.
Now yesterday we were we started part 1 of Joyce Meyer Waxes Word of Faith is what I called it. Part 1 of that was yesterday. We are going to do Part 2 today. But in order to do it right.
What I need to do is actually back the audio up just a smidge so that you can hear the context of what it is that Joyce is saying here and so what I am going to do is I am going to actually back up the audio just a smidge and the teaching that she is doing by the way the name of it from her television programme is Your Mouth and God’s Power and so I am going to back up just a smidge so that we can get the context of what it is that she was saying.
So you will hear roughly about a minute of what we were listening to yesterday. Joyce Meyer as she is you know trying to tell us from The Gospel of Luke 1 that the reason why the angel had to shut up the mouth of Zachariah was so that his negative words wouldn’t mess up the mission that he was sent on. Yeah listen in again with this horrific twisting of God’s Word from The Gospel of Luke 1 and we will just keep going through as we do today’s instalment of Joyce Meyer Waxes Word of Faith. Here we go…..
Joyce Meyer, “Zachariah said to the angel v18….
Luke 1 v 18 (AB – Amplified Bible)
18 And Zachariah said to the angel, By what shall I know and be sure of this?
Prove it to me God.
Luke 1 v 18 (AB – Amplified Bible)
18 For I am an old man, and my wife is well advanced in years.
So here he has been praying for a child. But he already thinks he is too old to have one. He thinks his wife is too old. So look what happens?
Luke 1 v 19-20 (AB – Amplified Bible)
19 And the angel replied to him, I am Gabriel. I stand in the [very] presence of God, and I have been sent to talk to you and to bring you this good news. 20 Now behold, you will be and will continue to be silent and not able to speak till the day when these things take place, because you have not believed what I told you; but my words are of a kind which will be fulfilled in the appointed and proper time.
So God supernaturally shut Zachariah’s mouth and I wouldn’t mind to have a little of that sometime myself….”
Chris Rosebrough, “You could just do it on your own. I would really appreciate it because you are twisting God’s Word here….”
Joyce Meyer, “So God supernaturally shut Zachariah’s mouth and I wouldn’t mind to have a little of that sometime myself amen and He had to do it in order for His plan to come to pass in his life.
The birth of this child was so important as a forerunner to the Messiah and he could see, the angel could see from Zachariah’s initial response that his first words that there was not much chance of that man verbally cooperating with the plan of God and so God had to shut his mouth….”
Chris Rosebrough, “Now this is called eisegesis. Okay now remember we are dealing with a historical narrative. Now the narrative says, ‘Because you did not believe therefore you will not be able to speak.’ But what Joyce Meyer is doing here is she is engaging in eisegesis.
Now if you don’t know what that is two Greek words that you should understand ex ἐκ, ἐξ (Strong’s Concordance 1537) means out or out of eis εἰς (Strong’s Concordance 1519) means into. So when we talk about exegesis we are talking about reading out what is in scripture, which is the right way to do it. Eisegesis is reading into the biblical text what isn’t there. So what she just did is engaged in eisegesis. Reading in the Word of Faith heresy into this text from Luke 1, it is not there.
Nowhere does it say, ‘The angel knew well I have got to shut this guy up or he is going to you know, because his negative words are going to end up destroying the mission of the forerunner of the Messiah. No the text itself is clear. Because you didn’t believe, you could almost say it was a punishment of what was you know for not believing the words of the angel Gabriel. That is what the text says. If you were to engage in exegesis you could not come up with this quote interpretation that she has come up with because her interpretation is based upon her inserting into this text stuff that isn’t there.”
Joyce Meyer, “And I just wonder how many of us mess up the plan of God for our life. Come on now. I just wonder how many wonderful things God has had planned and how many things He has planned now that if you were not at this conference you would surely mess up by saying things that you shouldn’t say.
Chris Rosebrough, “So you can mess up the plan of God for your life with your words and that see this is why the angel had to shut up Zachariah according to Joyce Meyer, but not according to the biblical text.”
Joyce Meyer, “But thank God because you are here this weekend God is not going to have to supernaturally shut your mouth. You are going to learn. Is anybody with me tonight? How many of you see that? Well I guess I just better shut your mouth right now or we are never going to get this done.
Our words are so important. Everything in The Bible is important but there are some things that stand out to me. The power of our thoughts are extremely important because our thoughts become words and of all the teaching that we put on television the three areas that people respond to the most are the mouth, the mind, and emotions. I think we all know that those are areas that tend give us a lot of trouble. The mind is the battlefield. Your thoughts are where Satan attacks you.
The Bible says that out of your heart, what is in your heart, what is in your mind, comes out of your mouth. So naturally Satan wants to put wrong thoughts in your mind hoping that you will speak wrong things out of your mouth. I was thinking even just about exhortation. I am going to talk some of this weekend about what a powerful ministry it is just to encourage people and how desperately that is so much more needed today and you know when people see me out and about I frequently get compliments.
But I was thinking literally almost every person who comes up to me to give me a compliment starts this way, ‘I know you probably hear this all the time, but….,’ and I was thinking today you know what I believe that even that is a clear example that here is a person God puts it in their heart to encourage and the enemy right away puts a thought in their mind, ‘Ah she hears that stuff all the time. She won’t hear what you have to say.’ We have to be so careful that we don’t let the devil talk us out of doing what God wants us to do in our lives. Pay attention to what you are thinking and pay attention to what you are saying.
Luke 10 v 19 (AB – Amplified Bible)
19 Behold! I have given you authority and power….”
Chris Rosebrough, “Okay now this is a tricky passage to get what is going on here. In fact I had to consult some very good commentaries in order to properly understand this particular text. But notice where she is starting in the story, this should clue you in that she is not engaging in biblical exegesis. What she is engaging in is what is called proof texting. Okay and so the idea is this. Proof texting is when you begin with your own idea and then you go hunting in scripture to find stuff that supports your idea.
Okay now proof texting is not, it is not you are not guilty of it if you sit there and say, ‘Okay the doctrine of the Trinity which scripture teaches that there is only one God and that God exists in three persons and we are going to show you this by basically going to the texts that talk about hey look the Father is called God. Here is the biblical text that says the Father is called God. Here is another text that says the Son Jesus Christ is called God and here is another text in The Book of Acts where the Holy Spirit is called God and yet scripture is clear from these passages and Isaiah and from Deuteronomy 6 v 4 that there is only one God.
And so the idea here is that when we take up the full sum of all of these biblical texts where it says, makes it clear there is only one God and yet there are three persons Father, Son, and Holy Spirit who are called God and they communicate to each other. For instance Jesus prays to the Father and the Father His voice is heard when Jesus is baptized and then the Holy Spirit descends like a dove and then Jesus says when he is going to return to the Father. So He is not the Father. He is going to return to the Father and when He returns to the Father, they are going to send the Holy Spirit.
So when we go through the biblical passages and you take up the full you know scope and warp and woof if you would kind of a biblical phrase there of what the scripture teaches about the one God then what happens is that you see that there is one God and yet there are three persons who make up the one God and there are not three gods but one.
This is what The Bible teaches and so when you pull up all of these passages to show what The Bible teaches regarding the one God you are not actually engaging in proof texting. What you are doing is you are trying to sum up the basic you know overall look at what The Bible teaches, what God has revealed about Himself using all of these passages.
So a lot of times when you are teaching sound doctrine somebody will turn around and accuse you of proof texting, ‘Oh you are just proof texting.’ No proof texting, the first move of proof texting begins with your own doctrine, with your own thoughts, with your speculations, with your ideas and then you go hunting for passages that support that.
Sound biblical doctrine can be done by looking at different passages and even out of context if you would. Especially since the ideas when you put them back into context, it is not going to change their meaning. But sound biblical doctrine is when you gather up collectively what The Bible says regarding a particular topic and then you exegete out what it is actually saying. You are not beginning with an idea. What you are instead doing is you are beginning with scripture and letting scripture form your definitions.
Now because the church has created definitions over its history you know hammered out a very good definition of the doctrine of the Trinity. You can begin with the churches definitions and the churches confessions because those were done and forged and created via exegesis, not eisegesis and not proof texting. Does that make sense?
So the idea here is that for instance you know I would point to something like The Nicene Creed. The reason why The Nicene Creed is true is because it says the same thing as scripture. Okay it is a summary of scripture. So the reason it is true is because it says the same thing. The Augsburg Confession which is a primary confession of the Lutheran faith. It is true because it says the same thing as scripture.
So these little confessional statements that you know that we have these confessions, they are true because they say the same thing as scripture. Now if they don’t say the same thing as scripture in those areas where they don’t say the same thing, they are not true. Okay does that make sense or they are not in accord with scripture. But if you are confession doesn’t say the same thing as scripture, your confession has to be reworked. You know so that is something to keep in mind.
But the reason why The Nicene Creed is true, the reason why The Augsburg confession is true, why the apology of the Augsburg Confession is true, why Smalcald articles are true, why the Athanasian Creed is true is because those creeds, those confessions say the same thing as scripture and the idea then is you can go into the biblical text and you can formulate those exact confessional statements. Those exact sentences by exegeting properly exegeting the biblical passages that talk to that topic.
Okay but what Joyce Meyer is engaging in here is proof texting and here she is you know, she is not going to tell the story that is in Luke 10. Instead she is going to begin at a weird place v19.
Now if you are familiar with The Gospel of Luke there is a little vineyard stories you know throughout The Gospel of Luke and let me read the story to you from Luke 10 so that you understand what is going on in this passage and then you will get what this passage is saying when you look at it in context. The context will actually flesh this out. So Luke 10 v 1. Here is what it says…..
Luke 10 v 1-7 (ESV – English Standard Version)
1 After this the Lord appointed seventy-two others and sent them on ahead of him, two by two, into every town and place where he himself was about to go. 2 And he said to them, “The harvest is plentiful, but the labourers are few. Therefore pray earnestly to the Lord of the harvest to send out labourers into his harvest. 3 Go your way; behold, I am sending you out as lambs in the midst of wolves.
4 Carry no moneybag, no knapsack, no sandals, and greet no one on the road. 5 Whatever house you enter, first say, ‘Peace be to this house!’ 6 And if a son of peace is there, your peace will rest upon him. But if not, it will return to you. 7 And remain in the same house, eating and drinking what they provide, for the labourer deserves his wages.
Now it is important to note that later after Jesus ascension, not ascension, Jesus resurrection. He says to His disciples, ‘This time take a money bag with you. Take sandals with you, a spare cloak and a sword even!’ You know but in this particular training mission if you would that is kind of what the sending out of the seventy two is about. He is training them on how to do evangelism. For this one….
Luke 10 v 4-12 (ESV – English Standard Version)
4 Carry no moneybag, no knapsack, no sandals [no sword, you don’t need any of that stuff], and greet no one on the road. 5 Whatever house you enter, first say, ‘Peace be to this house!’ 6 And if a son of peace is there, your peace will rest upon him. But if not, it will return to you. 7 And remain in the same house, eating and drinking what they provide, for the labourer deserves his wages. Do not go from house to house.
8 Whenever you enter a town and they receive you, eat what is set before you. 9 Heal the sick in it and say to them, ‘The kingdom of God has come near to you.’ 10 But whenever you enter a town and they do not receive you, go into its streets and say, 11 ‘Even the dust of your town that clings to our feet we wipe off against you. Nevertheless know this, that the kingdom of God has come near.’ 12 I tell you, it will be more bearable on that day for Sodom than for that town.
13 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. 14 But it will be more bearable in the judgment for Tyre and Sidon than for you. 15 And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You shall be brought down to Hades.16 “The one who hears you hears me, and the one who rejects you rejects me, and the one who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”
So here is the idea here, kind of an idea regarding sending in those days. Okay so this is an apostolic mission if you would. Jesus is sending ἀποστέλλω apostelló He is apostelló-ing. That is the Greek word here. Seventy two guys and they are going with His authority, with His message. They are heralds of the things He wants to say and because they are saying what they are, they are being told what to say the one who hears them, hears Jesus. Because they are giving the message that Jesus wants to have proclaimed and preached. Right same thing should be happening in your church by the way.
No pastor has the authority to bring his own message in a Christian church that belongs to Jesus Christ. So that way if he is saying the truth of what scripture says. The one who hears your pastor hears Jesus. That is what is kind of the idea there. But Luke 10 v 17 then goes on to say….
Luke 10 v 17 (NKJV – New King James Version)
17 Then the seventy returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.” 18 And He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19 Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you. 20 Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but ratherrejoice because your names are written in heaven.”
So what happens is the seventy two return and the thing they are really jazzed about, not the message they were preaching, not that people were brought to repentance. That is the thing they should have been jazzed about. They were, ‘Wow Jesus even the demons are obeying us.’ This is amazing stuff and then Jesus gently corrects them. Okay Jesus corrects them and refocuses them and He says to them….
Luke 10 v 18 (ESV – English Standard Version)
18 And He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19 Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you. 20 Nevertheless do not rejoice in this [this is not what you should be rejoicing about], that the spirits are subject to you, but ratherrejoice because your names are written in heaven.”
Okay now in v19 where it says…..
Luke 10 v 19 (ESV – English Standard Version)
19I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy and nothing shall hurt you.
Is that a blanket promise then that nothing can hurt a Christian? Answer no here is what Lenski the biblical commentator says regarding this he says, ‘But this does not mean that Jesus lifts his messengers above all the destructive forces of nature. Nor does it mean that they may in a foolhardy way disregard all natural dangers, which would be nothing but playing into Satan’s hands by tempting God. Nor does this symbolism lift the disciples above all persecution that is stimulated by Satan and above a possible martyr’s death, all the passages that speak of persecution declare the contrary.
But the words of Jesus mean that Satan cannot inflict personal persecution and death at will. Only when Jesus Himself wants Him to suffer and to die in the interests of His kingdom do such things come upon us. So then we accept them as being sent by Jesus and even then we trample on all of Satan’s power as did all of the martyrs who died and triumphed and by so dying defeated Satan.
So here is the idea you misunderstand this text and you twist it when you say that, ‘Oh well Jesus says all authority has been given and nothing shall hurt you.’ That is not a blanket promise that nothing ever shall hurt Christians. Because what happened to the apostle Peter He was crucified upside down. What happened to the apostle Paul? He was beheaded. He was stoned. He suffered a martyr’s death. He was nearly martyred on several different occasions.
So this is not some blanket promise that nothing shall hurt you and anyone who uses it that way is not paying attention to what is going on in this text and this was said by Jesus to correct the seventy two for their wrong focus and their wrong rejoicing and to get them to rejoice and to be happy and focused on the right thing. So let’s see what Joyce Meyer now does with Luke 10 v 19. Again it is suspicious that she starts at v19. Let’s see what she does with it….”
Joyce Meyer, “Not I will, I might, could be, hope so, maybe. I have given you every one of you that is a child of God, every person here watching by TV, listening in some way, if you are a child of God. You have authority and power. It has been given to you by God.”
Luke 10 v 19 (AB – Amplified Bible)
19 Behold! I have given you authority and power to trample upon serpents and scorpions, and [physical and mental strength and ability] over all the power that the enemy [possesses]; and nothing shall in any way harm you.
Now I am sure some people think, ‘Well if I have got so much power, then why is my life such a mess? Because you can kill we power of God in your life. You can press it down, hinder it, keep it from flowing by speaking things that are not in agreement with God’s plan and will for your life.”
Chris Rosebrough, “Wow so you have the power to literally cut off the power of God with your words. Now there is not a single verse in scripture that says that. So how is she doing this? Well by her proof texting. Pulling verses out of context and making them say things that they don’t. By the way Proverbs 18 v 21 does not say that you can stop the power of God in your life with your words. It doesn’t say that. This is absolutely blasphemous. Who is the sovereign here? Apparently you are or your words are. Your words are more sovereign than God Himself. Weird huh?”
Joyce Meyer, “God has equipped us. Now listen to me God has equipped us on the inside in our spirit with every single thing that we need to live a victorious life. Everything when you are born again the seed of God comes to live in you. That means that you are pregnant with everything that God is.”
Chris Rosebrough, “Really what passage of scripture says that I am pregnant with everything that God is? As a Christian I have been given the guarantee, the inheritance, the down, the deposit guaranteeing the inheritance. That is the Holy Spirit. So I have the Holy Spirit dwelling within me. But where does it say that I am pregnant with everything that God is? There isn’t a single passage of scripture that says this.”
Joyce Meyer, “In your womb….”
Chris Rosebrough, “I don’t have a womb….”
Joyce Meyer, “When a woman becomes pregnant her husband seed is planted in her womb and the child grows and grows and grows and develops then it gives birth. Well that is what happens when we receive Christ. We receive a seed of peace, a seed of righteousness, a seed of joy. Everything comes to us as a seed.”
Chris Rosebrough, “In our wombs uh huh again what verse says this?”
Joyce Meyer, “As we water it with the Word of God and we let the Holy Spirit work in our lives to pull the weeds out of our life and as we grow and we grow then one thing after another we give birth to these beautiful things that God has put in our life and they become our experience rather than something we just read about and never experience.”
Chris Rosebrough, “Again I just have to ask the question what passage of scripture says this? I am not familiar with any passage of scripture that says anything even remotely close to this. She well Luke 10 v 19 doesn’t say this that is for sure. Proverbs 18 v 21 sure doesn’t say this. Yet she just said it so matter of factly. This is nothing more than an assertion. This is a theological assertion without any biblical text to back any of it up.”
Joyce Meyer, “How many of you understand what I am saying? So you don’t even have to pray for peace. You have got peace. You need to pray that God will teach how to walk in the peace that you have. You don’t have to be, ‘Oh God I need joy.’ You say, ‘No God I believe your joy is in me. Teach me how to not to give up my joy. Teach me how to not let the devil steal my joy.’
We don’t need to keep praying for something we have already got. We need to start making use out of it. You don’t need to pray God give me power. You say, ‘God I believe that I have power on the inside of me. I am agreeing with you. I believe that I have power on the inside of me. Now teach me how to walk in that power.’
You will be amazed at how much different you feel. If you will just start to think and speak about what you already have. I mean you will just be like I have power. Wow I am anointed. I have abilities. Instead of going around, ‘I don’t have any power. I don’t have any peace. I don’t have any joy. Nobody loves me. Oh come on we are going to have too much fun this weekend….”
Chris Rosebrough, “By the way this is exactly what the apostle Paul prophesied would happen to the Christian church. If you are not familiar with the prophecy that I am referring you can find it in 2 Timothy 4. The apostle Paul he writes to young pastor Timothy. He says….
2 Timothy 4 v 1-4 (ESV – English Standard Version)
1 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: 2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. 3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, 4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.
Yeah what she is preaching here, by the way she shouldn’t be preaching. She is not biblically qualified to be a pastor is she? Nope she shouldn’t be preaching. But what she is preaching is a mythology. One that scratches itching ears if you would. Tells people things they want to hear.
‘Oh you are powerful. God has got a big thing for you and your words they have the ability to create the future. But make sure you only say the positive stuff. Because you can cut off you know God’s power with your negative words and things like that. You are in control. You are in the driver’s seat and all you have got to do is say positive things and positive things will happen to you because you can create your future.’ The Bible nowhere teaches this. This is as much mythology as the stories of Zeus and Athena and Hercules and Euripides and people like that and all the Euripides and ippities and uppities of Greek mythology. Yeah if you have read The Odyssey and the Iliad and the Odyssey you know.
This is as much mythology as that. Because this isn’t taught in scripture, this teaching has its origin not in the clear passages of scripture, but in the minds and wicked hearts of televangelists who have made a lot of money gathering for themselves a following of people telling them exactly what they want to hear, rather than preaching what God’s Word really says. They are heretics. They are false teachers. They are people leading people to hell. Because they are pointing them to themselves rather than to the truth, the truth that they are sinners in need of a Saviour – that Christ died for their sins and that God is sovereign.
God is Lord and He calls all men everywhere to repent and to be forgiven of their idolatry and their wickedness and their false doctrine and their false mythologies that are spoken in all ways by hijacking the name of Christ and using His word to try to create the impression that this is what God’s Word teaches, when it doesn’t teach anything of the sort. Something to think about…..
Alright we are up on our second break and if you would like to email me regarding anything you have heard on this edition or any previous editions of Fighting for the Faith you can do so my email address is firstname.lastname@example.org or you can subscribe to me on Facebook. It is facebook.com/piratechristian or you can follow me on Twitter. My name there is @piratechristian.
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