Fighting for the Faith With Chris Rosebrough – Mark Driscoll’s Tribal Christianity?
Below is a transcript taken from Chris Rosebrough’s radio show podcast Fighting For The Faith Radio podcast which was originally broadcast on Saturday June 1st 2013, which you can subscribe to iTunes. I highly recommend you do this if you want to develop discernment.
You can also watch the video The Four Points, a sermon preached by Mark Driscoll at The Resurgence (R12) Conference on YouTube > http://youtu.be/37yxhQHeVmo
Here is the video link for this transcript > http://youtu.be/IoSVtZq3mh8
Chris Rosebrough, “Alright moving along and again all three of these segments. The Rick Warren piece, the Andy Stanley piece and now the Mark Driscoll piece – all three of these all work together and since we are doing a Mark Driscoll update it requires me to do this.
[Plays music clip]
Cult of Personality – Living Colour
Look in my eyes, what do you see?
The cult of personality
I know your anger, I know your dreams
I’ve been everything you want to be
I’m the cult of personality
Like Mussolini and Kennedy
I’m the cult of personality
The cult of personality
The cult of personality
Alright there you go. That is our Mark Driscoll update music. Now this video that was posted really not that long ago on May 13th on The Resurgence YouTube channel is entitled The Four Points By Mark Driscoll and it requires a careful listen and we are going to do that. We are going to listen to it almost in its entirety and pay very close attention to the points that Mark Driscoll is making and this will come back to something that I have been trying to kind of flesh out this entire first hour. Now we are actually into the second hour here at Fighting for the Faith.
But it is this idea that these guys are not bound by what scripture says. They are bound by some kind of weird irrational ideology that somehow trumps what scripture says regarding sound doctrine and the truth and the things that, some of the things that Mark Driscoll are going to claim are secondary issues aren’t. I will explain here in a minute. But without any further or due here is Mark Driscoll from The Resurgence Conference last year in Irvine, California and this video is entitled The Four Points By Mark Driscoll. Here we go…..”
Mark Driscoll, “Thank you for joining us. We are very honoured to have you. I am having some vocal trouble. Puberty just hit. I am a late bloomer. I will try and power through. Let me setup our time together.
I am hoping to serve you as you listen to some of the greatest Evangelical leaders in the world today and we part of a great tradition of Evangelicalism that started about 50 years ago with the four guys, I call the four horsemen. It is Billy Graham the evangelist. John Stott the pastor. JI Packer the theologian. In addition to Francis Schaeffer the apologist, any of you read those guys? Inspired by those guys, appreciate those guys? They were part of what Tom Brokaw calls the greatest generation. The generation that really built The United States of America and that really built Evangelicalism and when this Evangelical statement began roughly fifty years ago. It was trying to find the gospel centre. How do we articulate…..”
Chris Rosebrough, “Okay got to point something out here. Notice he said, ‘Evangelical experiment.’ That is a weird phrase. It is one that is so odd, it is worth noting as an odd phrase and so I just wanted to highlight it as we were listening and I would point something out here. I am taking issue with his definition of evangelical and claiming that it only goes back 50 years.
Do you know what the Lutherans are called to this day in Germany? The German term is evangelisch which means the evangelicals. Okay Evangelicalism technically has its beginning and roots in The Reformation with the return of the Evangel or the you know angelion – the gospel. Okay so this is an interesting historical rewrite in the sense that it is myopic and it is myopic because it is only looking at the last 50 years. Rather than the grand sweep of what is considered – what I would consider to be true Evangelical history.
Mark Driscoll, “How do we articulate and communicate the essentials of who Jesus is and what Jesus has done. Out of that came a lot of schools and conferences, a lot of publishing houses that you and I buy the books from to this day and the magazine Christianity Today kind of became the flagship publication for the evangelical experiment and this all happened historically at the waning years of what has been called modernism.”
Chris Rosebrough, “Again here we go. What evangelical experiment? We either have the faith delivered once to the saints or we don’t. It is one or the other.”
Mark Driscoll, “It has been written of a great deal. But during that time in the west the prevailing worldview and ideology was predominantly Christian or at least Christian influenced and then what happened was the postmodern movement late 80s, early mid 90s. There was a lot of what was called deconstruction at that time – critiquing the enlightenment modern movement. Out of that came such things as the emergent church.
Just as there was classic liberalism that came into existence during the modern era that denied some of the essentials of the Christian faith, so then the deconstruction movement of postmodernism started to critique some aspects of Evangelicalism and I was part of some of the early discussions in the mid 1990s. Talking about what is faithful orthodoxy and what is compromise? And sadly some have really in some regards taken the tenants of postmodernism. No truth, no objective truth, no real sovereign God who is unchanging over all and the result has been widespread apostasy.”
Chris Rosebrough, “Okay now this is where I want you to remember what he just said here. Talking about the tenants of postmodernism, no objective truth. Yeah that is one of the tenants of it. In fact postmodernism is irrational in the sense that you know that truth doesn’t transcend a community or a tribe and it is weird to me because having listened to this speech of his now probably like six times. He contradicts himself.
Because he is still truly hanging onto some tenants of post modernity. He just calls it tribalism and so keep that in mind. Post modernity denies the existence of objective transcendent truth that transcends every community. Because remember in postmodernism the individual really doesn’t exist. It is the community that is the or the tribe or the group that is the entity of note. Okay so truth doesn’t transcend a tribe. That is what postmodernism really teaches. Mark Driscoll here actually is still teaching postmodernism.
Mark Driscoll, “Some young leaders that were part of an early movement that I was a part of and it moved from modernism to postmodernism to pluralism and Lesslie Newbigin the great British thinker and Missiologist after spending some time in India wrote a lot about pluralism. That we really then moved into a world that didn’t have a dominant paradigm. It is not like everybody thought like this or everybody was like that.”
Chris Rosebrough, “Again here is the weird part. What he is going to be laying out is a form of pluralism which makes sense in a postmodern context.”
Mark Driscoll, “It was pluralism and I believe now we have made another turn and this is what I want to talk about and prepare you for our time together. I believe we have moved from modernism to postmodernism to pluralism to tribalism and I believe tribalism is where we find ourselves today.”
Chris Rosebrough, “Now I want to be fair to Driscoll at the end of this speech you will hear him say that tribalism is a problem. The problem is that the way he is talking about it. He is working within the context of tribalism as he is laying these things out. Okay so even though he will say at the end, ‘Oh well tribalism is a problem and it is a challenge.’
This entire presentation works from in the context of get this postmodern pluralism in the form of tribalism. That is exactly what he is actually pitching here. Despite the fact that you know as he is laying it out, it kind of sort of sounds like he is taking a shot at it. But not really.”
Mark Driscoll, “And Seft Godin I don’t believe He knows Jesus yet, we can still pray for him. But he says that a tribe is really a group of people linked together by an idea, by a leader, and a way of communicating with one another.”
Chris Rosebrough, “Okay so a tribe is basically get this a cult of personality. That is what a tribe is so what would it you know if you were going to have a tribe gathering around a tribal chief that is a cult of personality, which is the reason why we use the music we use to introduce Mark Driscoll updates. We continue….”
Mark Driscoll, “And that effectively defines what a tribe is and I believe as the world is becoming increasingly more tribal, the church in particular and the Evangelical church has become exceedingly tribal. Some of you may have wondered why this line up? And it is an odd line up.
Tribes are coming together and you are part of an experiment. We hosted this event not in Seattle because we knew we could host an event in Seattle. We have got enough people there and by the grace of God we can complete an event successfully. We wanted to go somewhere else and try something else. Not just one tribe talking trash about the other tribes.
But a gathering of multiple tribes for the sake of Jesus, a kingdom that is bigger and better than any and all of our tribes and of which all of our tribes are a part and so as you are having an opportunity to listen today and this is the preface to our time together. Come with the attitude of a student, not a critic. Come to listen, not to disagree. Come to see where even if they are different than you. Perhaps you are the one who might be wrong. Just something to pray about….”
Chris Rosebrough, “Did you come with the idea that you to listen not disagree? If you listen to me will you, can I tell you Mark I want you to just listen to me and don’t disagree with me because maybe you can be humble and learn something from me. Again this is weird messaging.
Turn off your critical thinking. Turn off your discernment. Stop letting The Bible and what it says get in the way. You can just humble yourself and learn something from some of these other people from these you know other tribe leaders like Rick Warren and James MacDonald and others.
Again this is he is talking out of both sides of his mouth. In a way he is engaging in postmodern deconstruction of what The Bible calls or what The Bible calls us to regarding sound biblical theology and who we truly have true Christian fellowship with.”
Mark Driscoll, “Now in addition so a tribe is connected by an idea and the idea shapers and makers become the tribal leaders and I will call them tribal chiefs and the way they communicate is through such things as magazines, publishing houses, blogs, social media, conferences, schools. These are the means by which tribes communicate with one another.”
Chris Rosebrough, “Okay now I would argue that the reason why there is these quote tribes. He is calling them tribes is exactly because of what the apostle Paul warned us about in Acts 20. I read it for you earlier. Let me read it again Acts 20 v 28-31. Paul basically pleading with the church elders in Ephesus, he says….
Acts 20 v 28-31 (ESV – English Standard Version)
28 Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood. 29 I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; 30 and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them.
Tribal leaders, okay Rick Warren has a tribe and the reason why he has a tribe is because Rick Warren has drawn away the disciples after himself because of the twisted things that he is teaching. He has passed on his twisting of scripture to these followers and these are disciples who are disciples of Rick Warren.
James MacDonald the same way. Mark Driscoll the same way. You get what I am saying this is exactly what the apostle Paul warns about and yet Paul himself says, ‘Listen you know was Paul crucified for you? Did you know, does Apollos you know who is Paul, who is Apollos?
None of those people matter – who matters is Christ and so this gets back to concept that we need to reengage with and the idea of the catholicity of the Christian faith. Okay and tribal leaders are contrary to Christian catholicity and what I mean by that is the universal Christian faith. We are all brothers and sisters in Christ.
If we have been brought to repentant faith and trust in Christ for the forgiveness of our sins and each and every one of us are actually all called to confess and believe and defend the exact same doctrines. No joke. We are not to have unique doctrines. We are not to have doctrines that you can say, ‘Oh well that is Rosebroughian doctrine or that is Lutheran doctrine or that is Calvinistic doctrine. No we are supposed to be catholic and if there is truly a unique Lutheran doctrine then you should not believe it.
Okay if there is truly a unique Calvinistic doctrine that is unique only to Calvinists, yeah that is probably not what the scriptures teach. Now I know this is kind of a major question that we have got to deal with here. But I focus on the major core tenants of the historic orthodox catholic small ‘c’ not Roman Catholic – catholic faith here at Fighting for the Faith.
The place where we should have common ground and there is some more doctrines there that we ought to be agreeing on and the only way we are going to come to agreement is if we open our Bibles and deal honestly with what these texts say. I think it can be done.
It is unity around the core doctrines and when we are looking at men like Rick Warren – these tribal leaders that Mark Driscoll is trying to talk about, all I hear is men who are drawing away disciples after themselves. Not according to Christ.
That is what I am hearing and he is defending that and basically saying, ‘Oh yeah all these tribal leaders. We are all in. It doesn’t matter what you really believe and that is really where he is going to go with this.’ This is a very postmodern pluralistic tribal presentation we are getting from Mark Driscoll. But let’s continue…..”
Mark Driscoll, “And the tribalism in Evangelicalism, it is so strong it is kind of staggering. I have had the great privilege of travelling and meeting a lot of leaders in The US and around the world. I probably shouldn’t tell you this story, but I will. I was having a conversation with a guy you have heard of named T.D. Jakes a while back and….”
Chris Rosebrough, “Who is not our Christian brother. T.D. Jakes is technically a Modalist still. Even though he believes in one God three persons, if by persons you mean manifestations and Mark Driscoll was part of the crime that was committed in Evangelicalism to basically say T.D. Jakes is our Christian brother. That was a flat out crime.”
Mark Driscoll, “And he was asking so he didn’t know who I was. He was a very humbling helpful. He was like, ‘Who the heck are you?’ I was like, ‘Well…..”
Chris Rosebrough, “And notice he is talking about T.D. Jakes as if well he is just a tribal leader within Christendom. No he is not. He is a Word of Faith heretic and a Modalist. He is not our Christian brother.”
Mark Driscoll, “Well I am Mark Driscoll.’ He was, ‘Oh I have never heard of you. I am up in Seattle,’ he was like, ‘I never heard of you.’ Then I said something that I shouldn’t have said and he said, ‘No I have heard of you. You say things you shouldn’t say.’ So that is I was like, ‘Dang it…..’ So I said ‘Well I am sort of part of the Reformed movement. The question was what is that?
For those of you guys who are like Calvinist. You are predestined before the foundations of the world to use the English Standard Version of The Bible, you because that is a tribal marker right? You see because different tribes have different Bible translations. You are Reformed you use the ESV, you are fundamental you use the NASB, you are general Evangelical, you use the NIV. You are kind of Charismatic you probably use the New King James Version.
The tribes have different ways of communicating, articulating and they have different ways of identifying themselves. But my point is that the tribes tend to talk about one another, not with one another and the result is online….”
Chris Rosebrough, “Which is weird, you know I can’t even begin to tell you how many times I have requested formally to have a conversation with Driscoll or with Perry Noble, can’t get it, weird huh? I would love nothing more than to sit down and have a long conversation with Mark Driscoll. We would have a lot to talk about. But every single one of my formal overtures to him has gone unanswered.”
Mark Driscoll, “But my point is that the tribes tend to talk about one another, not with one another and the result is online, we are able to make a point but not a difference. It becomes a lot of….”
Chris Rosebrough, “Yeah now I have got to back this up, because this is one of their major messaging, all these critics and stuff like that you know these doctrinal bickerings. You are making a point, not a difference. Hogwash, if that were true then the apostle Paul was only making a point, when writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit to rebuke those who teach false doctrine.”
Mark Driscoll, “And the result is online. We are able to make a point, but not a difference. It becomes a lot of criticism and in fighting and I am not talking about some sort of unity movement where we all just wear matching sweatshirts, ride tandem bikes and sing love songs to Jesus and call it reconciliation. That is not what I am talking about. What I am talking about is, is there a way for the various tribes to learn from one another and the various tribal leaders to learn from one another for the sake of people meeting Jesus. Because…..”
Chris Rosebrough, “What do I have to learn from T.D. Jakes? He is a heretic, not a tribal leader within Christianity.”
Mark Driscoll, “Because at the end of the day that is what really matters and you know you have got a tribe, when you have got a tribal chief. Every tribe has a chief and I will tell you four things that a tribal chief does. Within Evangelicalism the tribal chief is who? Who was the tribal chief for Evangelicalism the last 50 years?
Billy Graham, people always ask who is the next Billy Graham? No one, no one because today we don’t have a tribe called Evangelicalism. We have Evangelicalism tribalized and probably the closest is guy named Rick Warren you may have heard of I heard he has got a church near here and might visit us later. But when….”
Chris Rosebrough, “Yeah Rick Warren a supreme twister of God’s Word, who claims to know God yet by his works denies it.”
Mark Driscoll, “But when you get to open the inauguration of the president in prayer. You are kind of the tribal chief. Right it is not like rock, paper, scissors and the guy from Chickville Baptist got the job. You have to be somebody. So here are the marks of a tribal chief. Number one they categorize who is in, who is out.”
Chris Rosebrough, “I thought scripture decides who is in and who is out. In other words it is Christ who makes that decision based upon what is revealed in His Word. Weird….”
Mark Driscoll, “That is why when two tribal chiefs come together the tribes freak out. That is why when John Piper sits down with Rick Warren. Guys who are homeschooled and live in the woods and….”
Chris Rosebrough, “Notice the ad hominem attack. That is why when John Piper sits down with Rick Warren guys who are homeschooled who live in the woods. Uh huh…..”
Mark Driscoll, “You know they really freak out and they are like, No he is not on our team,’ and Piper says, ‘Maybe he is….’ No our tribal chief has betrayed us and it all freaks out.”
Chris Rosebrough, “No the problem is that John Piper sat down and basically gave credence to Rick Warren who is a supreme Bible twister and by his methodologies is completely overturning and disrupting and obliterating the biblical church with these methodologies and ideas that are not in accord with what scripture said, but actually the exact polar opposite of what scripture says, how a church is supposed to operate, who it is for and who the pastor is what he is supposed to do and who he serves.
Yeah so no it is this wasn’t, ‘Oh no we have got two tribal chiefs together and all those poor home school kids out there in the middle of the woods got all freaked out because the tribal chiefs getting together. No the problem is that Rick Warren is a man who is duplicitous and a deceiver and claims to know God. But denies him by His constant works which show that he has no allegiance whatsoever to what scripture says regarding sound doctrine and he twists the Bible like it’s a bunch of balloon animals.
One minute it’s a bunny, the next minute it is a sword and the next minute it is a little pony and then it is a little phoofy doll. You know this is what Rick Warren does with the scripture. He has no allegiance to what scripture says at all because he constantly manipulates it in order to make it say what he wants it to say. He is again one of the people that Paul warns us about. One of those guys those deceivers who draw away disciples after themselves not Christ.”
Mark Driscoll, “And what and usually those people are opposed to drinking, but they start acting like they have had a few. So what tends to happen then is the internet, it exacerbates everything. It multiplies everything positively and negatively, because the now the tribes can form and they can communicate and they can criticize. But one of the things that a tribal chief does is they kind of…..”
Chris Rosebrough, “Now notice here what is missing here? Valid biblical criticism. Oh yeah well see the internet has exacerbated all of this right? Yeah it is the internet’s fault. No it is not. The fault is with the false teacher and so here Driscoll is literally exonerating the false teacher and slapping upside the head those who rightly are saying, ‘This is not what the Bible says. This man is twisting the scriptures and is lying to you and deceiving and people need to be warned about his false theology and false doctrine.’ No not in Driscoll’s worldview. ‘No Rick Warren is just a tribal leader and we need to just put aside these secondary issues that are dividing us and we need to humbly learn from each other.’ This is what he is arguing for here.”
Mark Driscoll, “But one of the things that a tribal chief does is they categorize, who is in who is out? Who do we trust? Who do we not? Who do we work with? Who do we not? Number two they have convening powers. So a tribal chief can pull together people from the tribe. You know you are a tribal chief, if you call a meeting and the people show up. If the leaders show up, then that means the chief convenes the meeting.
Number three they also practice clumping. That is what a tribal chief does. Don Carson someone who I have known for years through The Gospel Coalition talks about clumping and this is where different tribes and tribal chiefs will work together and sometimes it is around a common enemy. Like the denial of substitutionary atonement or the denial of hell. Things like that, all of a sudden tribes will clump together against a common enemy or a common doctrine that is an enemy of the gospel. Maybe that is a better way to put it.
Number four the tribal chief endures a lot more criticism than the average person. I don’t know if you have googled certain tribal chiefs and see what things are said about them. But they endure a lot more criticism, opposition and ostracism than the average leader. How many of you are guilty of contributing to that criticism unnecessarily? How many of you in an effort to make a point and not a difference have tried to create a tribe for yourself.
Chris Rosebrough, “Here we go again to make a point and not a difference. That is a slogan designed to basically tell you people, ‘Stop criticizing people who are teaching false theology. Just see them as a tribal leader and we need to find out how we can make a difference for Jesus and you are not making a difference by making a theological point.’ That is duplicitous and it is not even biblical.”
Mark Driscoll, “Defining yourself by whom or what you are against and going negative, instead of going for the positive hope of the gospel of Jesus Christ and for you young guys be careful of two things, be careful that you don’t jump on the latest fad.
There was one that blew through the early 90s and went the way of Hymenaeus and Alexander the emergent movement and make sure that you don’t just become a critic who defines yourself by who or what you are against and you grab a small rabid fan base and do what Charles Haddon Spurgeon called death by a thousand bee stings, while you and your little tribe use your opportunities to criticize others. We have very important things to do. Hell is real. Jesus is alive. People need to be saved.”
Chris Rosebrough, “Yeah and I agree we have very important things to do, which is why I go back to what the apostle Paul said Titus 1 v 9-16.
Titus 1 v 9 (ESV – English Standard Version)
9 He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.
Teaching sound doctrine and rebuking those who contradict it, falls under one of the primary categories – primary responsibilities of teachers and pastors within Christ’s body the church. As Paul says under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit…..
Titus 1 v 10-16 (ESV – English Standard Version)
10 For there are many who are insubordinate, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision party. 11 They must be silenced, since they are upsetting whole families by teaching for shameful gain what they ought not to teach.
So silencing false teachers is one of the important things that we need to be doing and that is not my opinion. That is what God’s Word says.”
Mark Driscoll, “And I am not saying that we should in any way reduce our commitment to the gospel. But we should always be humble enough to learn from others. To see if there is a way that we could introduce more people to Jesus that is the big idea.”
Chris Rosebrough, “Okay so the big idea is humble enough to learn from others to see if there is a way to introduce more people to Jesus. So I am going to work with any tribal leader you know like Rick Warren or T.D. Jakes or you know name the heretic right? As long as I humbly learn from these other tribal leaders to see if there is a way for us to introduce more people to Jesus. That is the only thing that matters right. Wrong that is not what God’s Word says. What Driscoll is saying here is the exact opposite of what scripture commands us to do.”
Mark Driscoll, “Now here is how the tribes get built. I have a chart so it looks very official and you feel like you have got your money’s worth at R12 you are welcome alright….”
Chris Rosebrough, “Now it is hard to explain what this chart looks like. Basically take a piece of paper. Fold it in half, one way fold in half, another way so you have got four quadrants and then in you know quadrant one you know you are going to have words and quadrant two you are going to have words and I will explain it as we go…..”
Mark Driscoll, “It is a very fancy chart. There okay. Very fancy chart, we are the second most innovative church in America. If Craig Groeschel did this it would be way fancier. So here is what happens there are four categories of questions. Depending upon how you answer this question it puts you in a tribe, under a tribal leader with a translation of The Bible, going to certain conferences, certain Bible colleges, seminaries. Reading certain books from certain publishing houses. The first is are you Reformed or Arminian?
Some of you will say both you are confused.”
Chris Rosebrough, “Okay now listen to how he defines this. If you were to start in the left top hand corner of the quadrants and right Reformed or Arminian? Put a number one next to Reformed and number two next to Arminian. Okay so these are his four points that he points out. So there is these four quadrants. Listen to his definition of Reformed versus Arminian.”
Mark Driscoll, “Are you Reformed or Arminian? When it comes to salvation that God is the primary agent in salvation or we are the primary agent in salvation. I know I am simplifying it. But I only have 20 minutes.”
Chris Rosebrough, “Okay notice what he said. Reformed God is the primary agent in salvation. Arminian you, we are the primary agent in salvation. Boy the way he describes that, that is not Reformed versus Arminian. Okay that is Monergism versus Pelagianism. That is exactly what he just said and he is just glossing it and you have got to understand this folks.
If you do not understand historically what the Pelagian heresy was you need to go back into the archives of Fighting for the Faith and listen to the lectures by Phil Johnson where he walks through these different heresies. You know with the Judaizing heresy, the Gnostic heresy and he talks about Pelagianism. Pelagianism has always been a dividing doctrine. Okay it is the difference between orthodoxy versus heresy. If you believe that God is the primary agent in salvation and that He is one who raises us from the dead. That is Monergism. That is the orthodox biblical teaching. If you believe that man is the primary agent in salvation by a decision, then you are denying the doctrine of original sin and that means you are Pelagian.
If you are Pelagian you are a heretic and you are not a Christian. That is historically how this has always been fought and here Driscoll is just glossing this, absolutely glossing it as if, ‘Well listen you know we have got Pelagian brothers and I am going to use that term here because of the way he defined it. We have Pelagian tribal leaders that we need to humbly learn from. No we don’t. Really for real we don’t.”
Mark Driscoll, “Next question is are you Complementarian or Egalitarian?
When it comes to the governments of church and the home are you a Complementarian who believes that men bear responsibility to lovingly, humbly lead or are you an Egalitarian where you don’t see a necessary distinction in such things as offices like Pastor in the church between men and women?”
Chris Rosebrough, “Okay so now in the second quadrant which is, so it will be top right corner. Number three is Complementarian. Number four is Egalitarian. So Egalitarian would be, ‘Hey you know we have female pastrixes.’ Now yeah I understand that this is not technically a salvation issue. But the Complementarian Egalitarian distinction shows at its core a fundamental misunderstanding and misuse of God’s Word by those who argue for the Egalitarian view and as a result of it within the Missouri Senate it is a dividing factor for us.
We do not ordain women and we are not in fellowship with other Lutheran denominations who ordain women. It is actually a dividing issue. This is not something that is adiaphora?
Why? Because it actually says something about how that body, that church body reads scripture and if they are going to abuse and twist God’s Word in such a way that they can come up with female pastors that is going to then affect and impact how they preach everything including the gospel and I would point you to such denominations as The ECLA and The Episcopal Church in The United States of America as proof positive that objectively that is exactly how this always plays out and by the way the same arguments that those types of churches used to bring in female pastrixes are exactly the same arguments that they used – same verses even to then turn right around and ordain practicing unrepentant homosexuals.
This is not a, ‘oh we take it or leave it issue.’ This is actually a hill worth dying on specifically because somebody who is mishandling God’s Word and twisting it so badly that they come up with the Egalitarian view. This says that they are not capable of teaching sound doctrine anywhere along the line. That is really what it comes down to. We continue…..”
Mark Driscoll, “Number the third category, are you Charismatic or Cessationist? Do you believe that all the spiritual gifts continue into the present day or are you one who thinks that they ceased in the first century, even there is no evidence….”
Chris Rosebrough, “He is Charismatic. So bottom left quadrant is number five Charismatic. Number six Cessationist. If you want to write it down.”
Mark Driscoll, “I am on cold medicine. I can get away with murder at this point. So and then the fourth category is are you Missional or Fundamental?
When it comes to the engagement of the church from Christians in culture, are you Missional thinking that the church should contextualize the culture or are you fundamental, which is more just mental.”
Chris Rosebrough, “Notice the swipe and by the way this really should be not Missional versus Fundamental. This should be I would say Seeker Driven versus Traditional. That is really what is going on here and so he has taken the traditional church model which basically says, ‘We have holy things to do at church. We are here for word and sacrament.’
That kind of thing and so you know that is what is going to drive us as opposed to quote what he is calling the Missional model where you basically bring into the church, you know you play secular cover songs and cultural trappings in order to attract people. That is really what he is talking about here and again I don’t think that is adiaphora at all.
Mark Driscoll, “And you think that the church should withdraw from culture because for you when you think of culture, you immediately think of worldliness and that tends to be what happens for those are fundamental. Okay so here is the question before we get going: what tribe….”
Chris Rosebrough, “So notice he is along the way in setting out these definitions, he is taking swipes at those positions he disagrees with.”
Mark Driscoll, “Okay so here is the question before we get going: what tribe are you in? So we are going to, no leave it up. Here is my big point. Don’t take away my chart. Okay so let’s say you are two, four, five.”
Chris Rosebrough, “Okay let me translate here two you are Arminian, but the way he used it. I am going to say you are Pelagian. Four you are Egalitarian which means you do not know how to handle God’s Word and you are five, you are Charismatic. So Pelagian, Egalitarian, and Charismatic…..
2. Arminian / Pelagian
Mark Driscoll, “You are just classic Charismatic Pentecostal. Okay and thank you for raising your hands during our singing time. We are very glad to have you.”
Chris Rosebrough, “So is that just another tribe in Christianity? The Pelagian, Monergism distinctive is no longer anything worth dividing over. We can just say, ‘Hey it doesn’t matter what you believe here,’ even though historically the church has said Pelagianism puts you outside the church.”
Mark Driscoll, “Let’s say you are one and three. What tribe are you in?”
Chris Rosebrough, “That would be Reformed Complementarian.
Mark Driscoll, “Together for the gospel, okay this one guy yelled. But he didn’t raise his hands during the singing time. Together for the gospel. The Gospel Coalition and that tends to be that category, also I would say Classic Reformed Baptist. How about this one? One, three and five.”
Chris Rosebrough, “Reformed, Complementarian, Charismatic. That would be what Driscoll thinks he is.”
Mark Driscoll, “Reformed, Complementarian, Charismatic.
You are into sovereign grace. You like Wayne Grudem. You like John Piper and you don’t see a lot of converts. But you do.”
Chris Rosebrough, “I take it back. He thinks he is Missional too.”
Mark Driscoll, “I don’t write the mail. I just deliver it.”
Chris Rosebrough, “So if you are Reformed, Complementarian, and Charismatic you don’t see a lot of converts. Notice he puts Piper in the Charismatic category and that is a correct place to put him….”
Mark Driscoll, “That tribe is my tribe and tends to be evangelistically weak. The majority of evangelism in church planting is not happening in our world. But the majority of blog writing and book publishing is. Okay and that is not bad I like books.”
Chris Rosebrough, “That was a swipe, sarcastic swipe, again making a point, but not a difference right.”
Mark Driscoll, “What if you are one, three and seven. You are Reformed Complementarian, and Missional. Well you love Tim Keller and you are more Reformed Missional. But you don’t talk a tonne about the Holy Spirit and so what you talk a lot about is the gospel. The gospel loves. The gospel saves. The gospel transforms. Not apart from the person and work of the Holy Spirit. You tend to attribute a lot of the Holy Spirit’s work to the gospel
2. Pelagian / Arminian
7. Seeker Driven / Missional
Chris Rosebrough, “Now I want to clear something up here. Scripture is clear here that all scripture is God breathed. Where do we see the primary work of the Holy Spirit? Answer in the preached Word. So you want to hear the Holy Spirit speak? Go somewhere the guy is actually preaching God’s Word in context and proclaiming it. Yeah the Holy Spirit is working because He is attached intimately with His Word.”
Mark Driscoll, “Got you. Okay how about if you are two, three, five, seven and I know maths is hard, so we are not going to make you total it up.”
Chris Rosebrough, “Okay two, three, five and seven. You are Pelagian, Complementarian, Charismatic, Missional.”
2. Pelagian / Arminian
7. Seeker Driven / Missional
Mark Driscoll, “I know maths is hard, so we are not going to make you total it up. But let’s say you are kind of Arminian, Complementarian, Charismatic, and more Missional. You are probably something like the Calvary movement, and there a few Calvary guys who are Reformed, but for the most part it has not been a Reformed movement. You are more Calvary movement right.
How about this? Let’s say you are two Arminian,”
Chris Rosebrough, “Pelagian, the way he defined it.”
Mark Driscoll, “Five Charismatic and seven Missional, but you are not Reformed and not Complementarian.”
2. Pelagian / Arminian
7. Seeker Driven / Missional
Chris Rosebrough, “That would mean you are Egalitarian. So you are four.”
Mark Driscoll, “Catalyst, Steven Furtick my friend. Perry Noble….”
Chris Rosebrough, “So Steven Furtick Pelagian, Egalitarian, Charismatic, Missional, again Steven Furtick shows that he is incapable of rightly handling God’s Word and yes it touches on the gospel and no it is not something that is secondary. It is primary.”
Mark Driscoll, “Perry Noble my friend and I will say this too. John Piper my friend, Wayne Grudem my friend. Everybody I am talking about that I name is actually a friend of mine. Somebody I really love. I have had meals with. Most of them have met my kids, like they are genuinely godly people that I really love and appreciate.”
Chris Rosebrough, “Now notice the way he is then playing this all out. These differences don’t mean anything. They are not important and yet historically these have been extremely important distinctives. Not according to you know tribal leader Mark Driscoll. Yeah we need to well how did he put it again?
‘Be humble enough to learn from other tribal leaders to see if there is a way to introduce more people to Jesus. So these distinctions that he is pointing out here. It doesn’t mean anything. So what is this? Well oddly enough this is postmodern. Truth doesn’t transcend a community or tribe. It doesn’t so we can talk about how you know we can humbly learn from the tribal leaders, even from tribal leaders whose tribe teaches rank heresy. Heresy that the church has always historically said is heresy.
We need to just humble ourselves. It doesn’t matter if they twist God’s Word. It doesn’t matter if they ordain women. None of that matters. We need to humbly figure out a way to learn from these other tribal leaders, so that we can introduce more people to Jesus. Well the reality is this is that if somebody is going to a church that that teaches rank heresy they are not being introduced to the biblical Jesus. They are not being introduced or they are not hearing the biblical gospel and even if they accidentally hear the biblical gospel, they are being discipled not in sound doctrine – but in false doctrine.
You see again my point is this is that every single church actually is duty bound to teach the exact same doctrine. Because its source is God’s Word. That is the reality regarding what we confess when we say, ‘We believe in one holy catholic universal and apostolic church. We believe in the faith once for all delivered to the Saints.’
If we are going to have real unity we are going to have to roll up our sleeves and do the tough work of slogging through these passages and finding out what is causing these differences. Because the reality is sound doctrine we are commanded by Christ in His Word to teach it and to rebuke those who contradict it.
Which means that it is capable of being known and believed and confessed and where there is differences, often times what you are going to find is those differences are the result of a person who basically brought people along who are speaking twisted things and drew away disciples after themselves rather than Christ. But we continue…..”
Mark Driscoll, “So I wouldn’t pick on someone unless I really love them. That is my love language. It is picking on people so and so if you go to something like a Catalyst event, that tends to be that crowd and world class leaders like Craig Groeschel and like Andy Stanley. How about this? Let’s say you are two, three, six and eight. So you are Arminian….”
Chris Rosebrough, “Pelagian…..”
Mark Driscoll, “Complementarian, Cessationist, fundamental.
2. Pelagian / Arminian
8. Fundamental / Traditional
And that is just not a fun group right like that is just no fun. It is no fun. That is Fundamental Baptist. Right which you are welcome. Both of you we were wondering who rode the horse and it is awesome to have you. You know because cars aren’t in The Bible so just…..what if you are seven you are just seven. You are Emergent / apostate. Right….
7. Seeker Driven / Missional
Chris Rosebrough, “He has no problem calling his old Emergent buddies who he worked intimately work back in the 90s and the early part of the 2000s as apostates. He has no problem with that. Interesting……”
Mark Driscoll, “No you are I mean you just are. I didn’t name any names yet and so here is where The Resurgence is at and Mars Hill and Acts29. One, three, five, seven
7. Seeker Driven / Missional
Just like Jesus. That is where we are at. So what tribe are you in? Do you see this? Is this helpful? You are welcome…..”
Chris Rosebrough, “The question is what is the truth that transcends all these tribes that all of us are bound to believe, teach and confess? He is denying that through this presentation. Basically sweeping it under the rug, glossing over it, as if it doesn’t matter….”
Mark Driscoll, “What tribe are you in and what tends to happen is rather than learning from other tribes we criticize other tribes and rather than working with other tribes for the sake of people meeting Jesus, which I am going to say….”
Chris Rosebrough, “How am I supposed to work with a heretic to help people meet Jesus? How am I supposed to learn from and work with somebody who every time he opens The Bible, twists it to say things that it doesn’t say so that I can help people to meet Jesus? How an earth can somebody meaningfully meet Jesus from a false teacher who is twisting God’s Word or teaches rank heresy? It can’t be done. Scripture doesn’t say to do that. It is says to do the opposite of what you are saying. Whom I to believe here, the apostle Paul or tribal leader Mark Driscoll?
Mark Driscoll, “What tribe are you in and what tends to happen is rather than learning from other tribes we criticize other tribes and rather than working with other tribes for the sake of people meeting Jesus, which I am going to say above all is the most important thing, it is the most important thing. What tends to happen then is we become so tribalized that we no longer evangelize, we become so tribalized that we no longer evangelize and so I would ask you….”
Chris Rosebrough, “Oh no so if you are tribal you don’t evangelize, which by the way is complete malarkey….”
Mark Driscoll, “Is your tribe a home or a prison? If it is a prison you can’t leave. You can’t read another book, go to another conference, work with another ministry leader. It is a prison or is your tribe a home, a home from which you can go visit other tribes and learn from them.
Meet the greater family of God and if so then you will have an opportunity not only to improve your tribe. You know if your tribe is only home grown and inbred, if you only read the books and sing the songs and listen to the teachers that completely already agree with you – you are going to be inbred.”
Chris Rosebrough, “Oh again just listen to the apostle Paul. Okay an overseer in the church….
Titus 1 v 9-14 (ESV – English Standard Version)
9 He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.
10 For there are many who are insubordinate, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision party. 11 They must be silenced, since they are upsetting whole families by teaching for shameful gain what they ought not to teach. 12 One of the Cretans, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” 13 This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, 14 not devoting themselves to Jewish myths and the commands of people who turn away from the truth.
So again who are you going to believe? Are you going to believe Mark Driscoll? What do I as a Christian as somebody who holds to sound biblical doctrine, who believes in the inerrancy of scripture and the importance of sound doctrine and rightly handling God’s Word. What do I have to learn from Rick Warren? I don’t think I have anything to learn from him. He has got nothing to say to me until he repents and shows that he is able to rightly handle God’s Word.
What do I have to learn from Joel Osteen? Nothing absolutely nothing, reading his books is absolutely grinding on my mind and my soul and the only reason I have ever done it is because I have to actually for my vocation warn people about that false teacher. What do I have to learn from T.D. Jakes and his books? Not a thing.
I would rather spend my money on good solid theological books that I know are from men who have shown that they are capable of rightly handling God’s Word. But not only that, but have handled it in such a way that they are able to push me even deeper into God’s Word and expand my understanding of what it says. There isn’t a false teacher on the planet, regardless of whether or not he is a tribal leader or not who is capable of helping me understand God’s Word on a deeper level.
Because they don’t rightly handle God’s Word and they teach for shameful gain the things the things they ought not to teach…..
Titus 1 v 11 (ESV – English Standard Version)
….11By teaching for shameful gain what they ought not to teach…..
….and again notice the way Driscoll is talking T.D. Jakes buddy of his, friend of his and you know he is a tribal leader. We can learn something from him. Rick Warren same thing, same thing with Steven Furtick, I don’t think so. I really don’t think so. This is against what the scripture says….”
Mark Driscoll, “You are going to end up theologically unhealthy and you are going to have a movement that is really not going to have a long lifespan.”
Chris Rosebrough, “So it is unhealthy for you to only read books that teach you sound biblical theology….”
Mark Driscoll, “You are going to end up theologically unhealthy and you are going to have a movement that is really not going to have a long lifespan and so we want….”
Chris Rosebrough, “Yeah so orthodoxy you know is not going to have a long lifespan.”
Mark Driscoll, “And so we want you to not only have a healthier tribe. But we want your tribe to be part of the greater kingdom of God.”
Chris Rosebrough, “So a healthier tribe is one that lays aside their differences and humbly learns from other tribal leaders regardless of whether or not they are heretics to see if there is a way to introduce more people to Jesus. That is Driscoll’s definition, not God’s.”
Mark Driscoll, “And to see people meet the Lord Jesus Christ and let me submit to you that we are in a time where tribalizing is not helpful, that as we fight over secondary issues there are primary issues that really need attention….”
Chris Rosebrough, “Sound doctrine is not a secondary issue. The difference between Monergism and Pelagianism is not a secondary issue. It is a primary issue. The difference in how you handle God’s Word where either you affirm what God’s Word teaches regarding Complementarianism versus Egalitarianism is not secondary. It actually addresses such primary issues that the church body that I am a part of isn’t even in communion and alter pulpit fellowship with those who allow women to be pastors. That is how important it is….”
Mark Driscoll, “When it comes to things like sexual practices and definitions of marriage and those kinds of things. The real question is do we any longer have the right to call people to repentance? That is really the issue.”
Chris Rosebrough, “Yeah but repentance isn’t just regarding immoral behaviour. Repentance primarily has to do with idolatry, false theology, false gods. You see when you have sound biblical theology, you not only have the authority to call people to repentance who are engaging in sins of the flesh, but you also have the authority to call people to repentance who are engaging in sins against the first table of the Law to love your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength.
Because false doctrine is a breaking of those commandments, blaspheming God’s name and things like that. So it is not just sexual immorality that we need to have the authority to call people to repentance. It is also false doctrine which is why again the apostle Paul says, ‘Teach what is in accord with sound doctrine and rebuke those who contradict it.’ Rebuking to call them to repent so that they may teach sound doctrine, that is what the passage says. But here this entire presentation by Mark Driscoll is glossing over all of that.”
Mark Driscoll, “That is really the issue in our day of pluralism, in our day of tolerance and diversity, in our day of universalism and multiple ways of salvation and sexual orientations and practices and all kinds of issues that Christians are struggling with and straining toward. The question is do we have the right to call people to repentance? If we lose the right to call people to repentance we cease being Christian.”
Chris Rosebrough, “And notice here. I want to point this out. You want to know why Driscoll has gone this way? Because of his participation at The Elephant Room 2, where he basically said sound theology, especially when it comes to the doctrine of the Trinity is not important. He has lost the authority to call anybody to repent doctrinally. That is why he is glossing this over.
This is a direct result of his rebellion against God’s Word regarding sound biblical theology and the crime that he committed with James MacDonald at The Elephant Room 2. Driscoll has lost the authority to call people to repentance who teach false doctrine. Because he has gone ahead and shaken hands with false doctrine. He has hugged false doctrine. He has prayed with false doctrine. He has told other Christians false doctrine doesn’t matter. That is why he is where he is…..”
Mark Driscoll, “And so let me submit to you that the most important thing is that people be called to repentance of sin and faith in Jesus Christ for the salvation of their soul and that is what is primary. That is what is essential. Everything else….”
Chris Rosebrough, “Yeah but just because it is primary, doesn’t mean that it is the only thing. This is a huge error….”
Mark Driscoll, “It may be important but it is secondary amen?”
Chris Rosebrough, “No sound doctrine is not secondary, it is primary….”
Mark Driscoll, “It is secondary to calling people to repentance and faith in Jesus Christ.”
Chris Rosebrough, “So there you go that was Drisoll’s presentation and again I apologise for the length of today’s episode of Fighting for the Faith. But I really believe it was necessary to take the time to flesh all this out, so you can really see what is going on here and what we are dealing with folks is an ideology.
This is an ideology that Warren, Driscoll, and Stanley have in common, an ideology that basically says sound theology doesn’t matter. Truth is in the tribes and we just need to lay aside the tribal differences so that we can supposedly just introduce more people to Jesus. It is all about the evangelism. That is the important thing. But it doesn’t make any sense when you actually take the time to think critically and biblically about what it is that they are saying and what it is that they are doing.
God’s Word does not relegate the importance of sound doctrine and a right handling of scripture to a secondary or tertiary place in the church. It is primary, so primary that a person can’t even be a pastor unless he can teach sound doctrine and has the gumption to rebuke those who contradict it.
Alright we are up on our second break. If you would like to email me regarding anything you have heard on this edition or any previous editions of Fighting for the Faith you can do so my email address is firstname.lastname@example.org or you can subscribe on Facebook www.facebook.com/piratechristian or you can follow me on Twitter. My name there is @piratechristian.
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