Fighting For The Faith With Chris Rosebrough – Joel Osteen and Oprah Winfrey Think God Wants You to Dream Big

Here is the video of this transcript >

If you want to listen to the full podcast just subscribe to the Fighting For The Faith Podcast in iTunes. The name of this episode is Is the jezebel spirit targeting you? Which was originally broadcast on 09/11/2012 – Friday November 9th 2012.

[First Segment  – 00:08:05 – 00:08:28]

As promised earlier in the week we are going to take a listen to Osteen’s second Life Class appearance on Oprah’s Life Class and we are going to listen to Osteen and Oprah about the importance of dreaming big. Dreaming big, this is another one of those false gospels. This is a replacement gospel. It is an instead of gospel that you are going to be hearing from Osteen and Oprah today.

[Second Segment – 00:50:19 – 01:22:53]

When I’m feeling lonely
Sad as I can be
All by myself on an uncharted island
In an endless sea

What makes me happy
Fills me up with glee
Those bones in my jaw!
That don’t have a flaw

My shiny teeth and me

My shiny teeth that twinkle
Just like the stars in space
My shiny teeth that sparkle
Adding beauty to my face

My shiny teeth that glisten
Just like a christmas tree
You know they walk a mile just to see me smile
My shiny teeth and me
(shiny teeth shiny teeth)

Chris Rosebrough, “That is our Joel Osteen update music. That is Chip Skylark – My Shiny Teeth and Me. One of the happiest songs we play here at Fighting For The Faith. It cracks me up every single time. Okay so this is going to be our first look at Joel Osteen’s appearance on Oprah’s programme, the second week. Joel Osteen has been visiting Oprah on her Life Class and this past week he appeared on the Life Class to discuss well not the I AM doctrine which he so horribly flubbed. I mean flub is like being kind in describing it. But this week he was on Oprah’s Life Class to discuss the idea of Dreaming Big and boy you know this is an interesting theology and an interesting good news, but I think it is best if I let Joel Osteen and Oprah do the explaining. So we are actually going to start listening from the beginning of this past week’s Life Class. Here is Joel Osteen and Oprah to discuss dreaming big. Here we go.”

Oprah Winfrey, “We are back. It is like we never left. That is right. Welcome to Life Class. We are here in the lone store state of Texas. Look at you. How many of you are from the beautiful Harvey Centre and are raring to go for tonight’s class? Pastor Joel Osteen is back with us. In case you didn’t know already, I know we have so many of you Lakewooder’s joining us but he is the leader of the largest and most diverse church. Hi Evan Twale, were you here last time? Okay, how can I miss you in the front row? Okay because how can I miss you in the front row. Okay he is the pastor of the largest, leader of the largest and most diverse church in America. He has got a new book called I Declare that I know so many of you…..”

Chris Rosebrough, “Okay I am going to pause there for a second and this is a thought that I want you to consider okay. I think that one of the reasons why Joel Osteen’s theology is creeping into so many churches is exactly for the reason that Oprah just said and that is that Joel Osteen is the leader of the largest church in The United States and Oprah herself she is one of the wealthiest women on the planet. She is one of the most successful women in all of human history. Okay so here is the idea, is that this success, this level of financial success, numerical success of you know recognition that their accomplishments are huge creates a large draw and a very real temptation.

Here is the idea well I mean I go, “I will probably never be as successful as Osteen and Oprah but I can teach that same message and maybe it will give a boost in attendance at my congregation. Maybe I can get a book deal.” You know I would point to somebody like Kevin Gerald of The Champions Centre up in Tacoma, Seattle area. Okay Kevin Gerald I constantly refer to him as a cheap Joel Osteen knock off, I mean this guy mimics just about everything that Joel Osteen does period. I mean he has even come up with his own creed just like Joel Osteen. He has come up with his own creed and the idea is this is that just you teach this message and you know in the American context you are almost guaranteed to have a huge congregation and the idea is the fact that Oprah and Joel are so successful creates that temptation in the minds of many pastors. You see that is I think where a lot of the temptation is to go this rout.”

Oprah Winfrey, “He has got a new book called I Declare that I know so many of you who are dealing daily with it. It is in stores right now. So it was a few weeks ago when we dug into The Power of I AM and I hope you all saw that. Pastor Joel talked about how whatever follows those two simple words I AM is going to come looking for you. It determines the kind of life that you live. So in tonight’s…..”

Chris Rosebrough, “Flat out magic. That isn’t Christian doctrine.”

Oprah Winfrey, “So in tonight’s lesson, I am so excited we are taking it a step further because we are challenging all of you to take the limit off of what you think is possible and dream big. That means discovering the dream that God has for you.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Okay now take the limits off your dreams and discover the dream that God has for you. My immediate question when I hear somebody talking like this is chapter and verse please. Where in the Bible does it say, does God promise to all of us that He has got some huge dream that we need to take the limits off of and to discover. It is a, have you discovered your God sized dream yet? Boy this sure would play well in Peoria, Houston and large portions of the United States of America. But is this really the message that the apostles of Jesus Christ taught and believed?

The reason I ask this is because keep in mind okay Jesus when He was on earth. He took to Himself twelve disciples, one of them betrayed Him. Okay one of them betrayed Him and Jesus was crucified you know as a result of His betrayal. Okay but okay let’s you know the surviving eleven apostles then replaced Judas with Matthias and so here is the question I have, all those three years that Jesus took time and invested that time and teaching training up the apostles, was that He was training them up with this message. “Go ye thee therefore into all the world and teach them how to discover the huge dream that I have for their lives.”

Does this even remotely sound like anything Jesus actually said? The answer is no. Jesus didn’t say anything even remotely approaching this. So we have got a real big problem. Okay number one we have two very successful, very wealthy people that by all American standards these people are living it. They are living the dream that most Americans really are aspiring for. There is a whole lot of people out there who would sell their mother into slavery in order to have the wealth and influence and power that Osteen and Oprah have. Okay and this is their message. What does this have to do with Christ? What does this have to do with repentance and the forgiveness of sins? Answer nothing. We continue.”

Oprah Winfrey, “Now for me dreaming big has never been about money or fame. I just happened to get it along the way. But the dream was never about getting money or fame. It is about the process of continually seeking to be better and my prayer from the time I was a little girl was, “God use me,” and it just so happens that God chose to use me in the world on a platform that caused me to have money and fame. I see that.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Now I have to have a question with all the false doctrine that comes out of Oprah’s mouth and the guests that she has on to discuss Spirituality, people like Deepak Chopra, Eckhart Tolle, Joel Osteen. Do you really think it is God who has blessed Oprah and given her this platform so that she can make a difference in everyone else’s lives? No not at all. The one person we can rule out as really ultimately being responsible for all this is God. Okay this is you know God did not send her to teach this heresy, God did not send her to teach this Spirituality, this New Age stuff that she does. The Law of Attraction, Deepak Chopra’s New Age mysticism or Eckhart Tolle’s nonsense. No, she is not an agent of the one true God. She really truly is because of this false teaching an agent of the evil one.”

Oprah Winfrey, “I see that very clearly in my life.”

Joel Osteen, “Yeah it is so important and what a great job you have done. That is the way God is. His dream for our life is big. Many times we limit Him because we think, “Well….”

Chris Rosebrough, “Okay so Joel Osteen tag teaming with Oprah just affirmed her as being sent by God and now is saying God’s dream for our life is big. Okay I will come back to my first question chapter and verse please? Where does it say this?”

Joel Osteen, “Oprah I don’t have the education or I don’t have the money or I don’t know the right people but you know what God never tells you to figure everything out. He says, “If you believe all things are possible.” So I think…..”

Chris Rosebrough, “Woah believe what? Believe that God has a big dream for my life? Notice what he is doing here. The object, well the object of our belief is different in Osteen’s theology. Okay belief is trust. Okay when we talk about the biblical concept of faith or belief the Greek word that is being used there is the verb form is pistuo or the noun form is pistis that means faith or trust and the idea is that faith or belief and trust always has an object. Okay so notice that the object of belief is different now. Okay biblical Christians are called to have faith and trust in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of their sins. Okay that is call of faith, repentance and the forgiveness of sins. So Jesus is the object of our faith. Okay this is different Joel Osteen is saying that all things are possible for them that believe. Believe what? Believe that God has a big dream for their life. Believe that is huge and that God is powerful and limitless and will bring that dream to pass. The object of belief is completely changed.”

Joel Osteen, “So I think that is a big part of it.”

Oprah Winfrey, “Yes yeah.”

Joel Osteen, “Taking the limits off of Him.”

Chris Rosebrough, “So apparently you have put limits on God if you are thinking small regarding your dreams.”

Oprah Winfrey, “So I would have to say we talked about this when I came to your house and interviewed you and Victoria. That from a little girl I was looking at what did I really I believe. I believe I would sit on the second pew from the front on the right every Sunday, that was my spot. I was baptized when I was eight years old and I really did believe when I look back at my life. I believed I was God’s child and I believed that because I was God’s child, being born in Mississippi, being into segregated south in Florida. I really did believe that anything was possible for me and that is what has carried me to this space and that is what we…..”

Chris Rosebrough, “Now is that really the message of the gospel? Okay think about it this way. Okay remember was it last week we reviewed the David Hughes sermon you know How to Hug a Vampire and he was supposedly preaching the book of Philemon which is only a chapter long. That is a tiny letter. But remember the setup for that letter. Philemon is a slave owner. Okay and understand Roman Empire slavery is actually different than the racial slavery that occurred in The United States of America. Unfortunately when you say the word slavery the thing that comes to mind is pre civil war United States of America and Africans being enslaved. That is the Roman Empire slavery is similar and different at the same time. Okay not that it makes it any better. I am not trying to defend slavery at all. But the point is this is that Philemon is a slave owner. Paul is writing a letter to him and he is sending the letter to Philemon via a slave Onesimus who had run away. Okay and Paul was sending him back without knowing whether or not Philemon would well exert his rights as an owner and you know enslave him again. Okay no guarantees there. But over and again God the Holy Spirit the Word you know with this the Word in light of the gospel given to slaves in you know the time of the Roman Empire. The time that Paul was writing his letters was this, “Slaves obey your masters.” Now I don’t know about you but by any measure of the American dream. The concept of, “Slaves obey your masters.” That is no huge dream. That actually sounds like a pretty tough life and yet that is what God the Holy Spirit commanded slaves to do. Not to dream big. Instead to obey their masters in every detail with this understanding that God is watching them and that their master ultimately is Jesus. So you know New Testament theology is very much directly opposed to this idea that Oprah is putting forward here.”

Oprah Winfrey, “I really did believe that anything was possible for me and that is what has carried me to this space and that is what we wanted to offer you all tonight. You become what you believe and to believe that you are created by the power that is greater than yourself and to live in that space means anything is possible.”

Joel Osteen, “It really does Oprah and I think that is the key you knew you were a child of God. You knew you were a person of purpose.”

Oprah Winfrey, “I really believed it, when you…..”

Chris Rosebrough, “Yeah boy that is great. Tell me about Jesus again, because this seems like a Jesus-less Christless religion here. Notice how carefully she talked about God as being a higher power. Well what about Jesus? What about the cross? What about repentance? What about the forgiveness of sins? You believed you were a child of God and you are discussing that you are being a child apart from faith and trust in Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.”

Joel Osteen, “You have that on the inside. It is amazing you had it as a little girl because of some of the things that you went through. But when you had that on the inside, it is what ignites the – what I call the seeds of greatness. God has put on the inside of every one of us.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Okay question, where in the Bible does it say that God has placed seeds of greatness on the inside of every one of us? The answer is nowhere. You will not find a single biblical passage that says that God has placed seeds of greatness inside of you, me, or anybody else. So Joel Osteen at this point is spinning out his own theology without any biblical text to back it up whatsoever, this is the classic sign of a heretic. This is the hallmark harbinger sign this man is a flat out heretic.”

Joel Osteen, “The problem is some people have had people push them down. Hey man you are not that talented……”

Oprah Winfrey, “Yeah….”

Joel Osteen, “Or you know just those negative voices and that is limiting what who they can become. You know you have got to break free from that and say God I am your child. You breathe your life into me and I believe I can accomplish the destiny for my life.”

Oprah Winfrey, “Oh right and everybody has a destiny.”

Joel Osteen, “Everybody does…..”

Chris Rosebrough, “Okay this is important. Okay Joel Osteen is supposedly a Christian pastor. Okay everybody has a destiny. Interesting that he is talking about this as if somehow this is the good news, “Hey listen God has some big plan for your life, yeah don’t worry just don’t just think of yourself as a child of God without Christ, without His cross, without repentance, without the forgiveness of sins because none of that is mentioned and dream big because each and every one of us have seeds of greatness inside of us, all we have got to do is come to grips with the fact that we are children of God and that means anything is possible.” This isn’t the gospel. This is a counterfeit gospel. Yeah truly for those listening to this it might be like good news. But this isn’t the biblical good news. This is a completely foreign gospel – a false good news.”

Joel Osteen, “You know it is different sometimes it is obviously different but sometimes it may not be what we think it is going to be. I never thought Oprah that I could get up in front of people. I am naturally very quiet, reserved. I never ministered in public one time before my dad died. Well I did one time only but you know I say that to say there are gifts and talents in us all that we don’t know we have.”

Oprah Winfrey, “Yeah you did that sermon just before he died. He was in a hospital.”

Joel Osteen, “Yeah I did a sermon. I never preached in the seventeen years. I worked behind the scenes during the television production. I never ministered one time. I said, “Daddy I am not a preacher.” I can’t get up in front of people. I wouldn’t know what to say and so seventeen years I was comfortable back there and really that was the, that was a destiny for my life at that time. But when my dad died, all of a sudden I ministered one time. He died suddenly of a heart attack, all of a sudden I had this desire on the inside. It was just instant. I had a desire to step up and pastor the church. Well in my mind it didn’t make sense. Because I had never ministered, I had never been to seminary. You know my voice was saying, “Joel you have got to be crazy.”

Oprah Winfrey, “All the I AMs…..”

Joel Osteen, “Yeah but I took that step of faith and you know what God gave me the grace for that season and we were never dreaming that it would grow. But look at today where I am. So I say all that to say you know that destiny can change. I mean it is not a surprise to God. But you have to be open to change. I think you have to watch, wait for God’s timing as well. But I think what I feel real strong is there are things on the inside of us gifts, talents, potential that we have not yet tapped into. I believe that as long as we are breathing there is potential on there that we are supposed to be growing and being better.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Okay my question again chapter and verse please. Where does the Bible say this?”

Joel Osteen, “And tapping into what God has put inside.”

Oprah Winfrey, “You know what I also believe and I actually know to be true and I learned this and people heard me tell this already so I won’t go into it. When I was first trying out for the colour purple that God can dream a bigger dream for you, than you can dream for yourself.”

Joel Osteen, “Absolutely…..”

Chris Rosebrough, “What kind of nonsense is this? God can dream a bigger dream for you, than you can dream for yourself. Man talk about self absorbed.”

Oprah Winfrey, “And what you want in your life. What you really want is not your piddle dreams for yourself because I had some piddle dreams. I wanted to be a millionaire. I wanted a nice house and what God dreamed for me. What you want to be able to do is live in the space you have. You know that beautiful Bible verse in Acts 17v28 that says, “In God I move and breathe and have my being.” You want to be able to live in that space of…..”

Chris Rosebrough, “What does that even mean?”

Oprah Winfrey, “God’s dream for you. So the question I think is what is God’s dream for you? We want to talk about what is the difference between dreaming and wishing for something? I think most people spend their life. They wish for things. They want things. I want a new car. I want a thing. That is different than living the bigger dream. Because tonight we are talking about what is the big dream for yourself?”

Joel Osteen, “I think the big dream for yourself is tied onto your purpose. It is bigger than just you, meaning that your dream should be connected to helping other people as well.”

Oprah Winfrey, “Yes…..”

Joel Osteen, “When it is just like you said when it is just…..”

Chris Rosebrough, “Now it sounds so pious. Oh see yeah as long as it is altruistic yeah dream away.”

Joel Osteen, “You know God I want a lot of money. You know I want to do this. But you know it is very different when you say you know what God I want to fulfil my purpose so I can be a blessing to others as well, of course you are going to take care of your family. But it is about you know fulfilling your purpose with just I believe God’s is always tied in some way to helping other people.”

Oprah Winfrey, “Yeah.”

Joel Osteen, “In some way to helping make the better place.”

Oprah Winfrey, “Well whatever….”

Chris Rosebrough, “Now notice what is not happening. People are not being confronted with their sins and brought to repentance and faith in Christ for the forgiveness of their sins. They are basically being told, “Listen you know God is up there waiting you know. He really, he has got this huge dream for you. I mean did you ever hear that before? He has got this huge dream for you and we are going to help you get there because you are a child of God and yet the people he is talking to are not you know are not necessarily Christians. It is a diverse audience there are at Oprah’s Life Class.”

Oprah Winfrey, “Well whatever we have here as part of a human family to offer to ourselves and to the rest of the human family…..”

Joel Osteen, “Yeah…..”

Oprah Winfrey, “Alright so let’s take a look at whatever you have in the prompter there a minute ago and you just took down. Let’s take a look at, where is that intro guys? Put it back up. In there, take a look at what some of the biggest dreamers have taught me over the years. Take a look….”

Chris Rosebrough, “Okay I am not going to maim off the people that are on this reel. Okay you have got Ted Turner. I mean and all and just a whole host of people who are not necessarily religious folks. You have got athletes and movie stars and artists and people like that in this. But notice Joel Osteen supposedly a Christian pastor telling people who are pagans that they are a child of God, without them brought to repentance and faith in Christ and the good news is God has a big dream for you. So now Oprah is going to reiterate this by putting up a montage of very well known stars. People who when we see their face. We would say these are people who are successful at what they do and so these are people. They are children of God too and they are living the dream. Listen…..”

Oprah Winfrey, “Take a look.”

[Plays audio / video]

Oprah Winfrey, “Do you have the courage to dream big.”

Ted Turner, “My father told me when I was a small boy….”

Chris Rosebrough, “Just so you know that is Ted Turner.”

Ted Turner, “My father told me when I was a small boy, he strongly recommended I set my goals so high that I couldn’t achieve them. I liked them so I am trying to help save the world and I don’t anticipate achieving it completely. But I…..”

Chris Rosebrough, “I am pretty sure you won’t, because Jesus did that.”

Ted Turner, “But I would like to.”

Person 2, “I have goals that always they morph and I have morphing goals that when I get near it I change it and it gets so I am always striving, because I feel like the last I would ever want to do is just achieve a goal and be like okay I am good now and then be like okay so now what?”

Joel Osteen, “I never dreamed I would be doing what I am doing now but. You see we thought if we could just maintain what my parents had built that would be great. But I don’t think that is not God’s dream. He wants every generation to build and go further.”

Oprah Winfrey, “When you create a vision for your life, doors will open.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Really so if I create a vision for my life, doors will open. What Bible says this?”

Iyanla Vanzant, “If you don’t have a vision. You are going to be stuck in what you know and the only thing you know is what you have already seen.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Uh huh right.”

Iyanla Vanzant,, “A vision that grows inside of you, a vision that wakes with you, sleeps with you, moves with you, a vision that you can tap into.”

Chris Rosebrough, “I have a vision that these heretics, no one would listen to them anymore and would stop sending them their money and they would completely shrivel up, become completely like yesterday’s news printed. There is my dream and my vision. How is that? It is very altruistic too.”

Iyanla Vanzant, “On your worst days the vision will pull you forward.”

Person 4, “You know I had a dream and I knew I had sing my way to it and I was like you know what it is going to happen. I don’t know when, I don’t know how, I don’t know where. But it is going to happen and I am just going to have to sing my way to it.”

Oprah Winfrey, “If it is not hard, you are not dreaming big enough.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Yeah make sure it is a sufficiently difficult dream. Bible verses please. Yeah there are none.”

Person 5, “When I started the business twenty one years ago I just wanted….”

Chris Rosebrough, “Polarity…..”

Person 5, “When I started the business twenty one years ago I just wanted my children and I to be able to pay our bills and buy groceries.”

Oprah Winfrey, “And so now what would you say to somebody who has an idea for a dream for themselves.”

Person 6, “To go for it. There is no sin in failing. But the sin is in never trying.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Bible verses to back any of this up?”

Joel Osteen, “Good…..”

Oprah Winfrey, “We are talking tonight….”

Chris Rosebrough, “Alright so that kind of gives you an idea of what is going on there. Now what I would like to do is read to you a quote. Okay a quote from Martin Luther. Martin Luther actually he wrote a commentary on the book of Isaiah. Isaiah 1 v 2 where Isaiah says.”

Isaiah 1 v 2 (ESV – English Standard Version)

Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth!
For the Lord has spoken:

Let me read to you a portion of what Martin Luther writes here because it is important for us to understand the difference between how a true prophet, a true messenger from the real God, the one true God speaks as opposed to well somebody who is really an agent of the devil. Okay here is what he says.

Martin Luther, “Isaiah is an exceedingly eloquent prophet endowed with a rich supply of words. He is a man who speaks with great earnestness. But this is scripture’s way. First to terrify, to reveal sins, to bring on the recognition of oneself, to humble hearts. Then when they have been driven to despair it’s second office follows namely the booing up and consolation of consciences through the promises. This is how the Holy Spirit teaches.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Okay this is the idea between Law and gospel. So God even operates in Law and gospel. You know God first terrifies us and shows us our sinful condition. This is why Jesus in Luke 24 v 47 says. Go and proclaim repentance and the forgiveness of sins in His name to all nations. When you look at how Peter preaches in the book of Acts, always confronting people with their sins. I mean going so far as to pointing his bony finger at people and saying, “You crucified the Lord of life.” Right and then consoling them with forgiveness of sins won by Christ. This is how God operates and Luther points this out in Isaiah 1 v 2. But listen carefully to how he says Satan operates.”

Martin Luther, “Satan on the other hand worms his way in by means of sweet speeches and flattering words until he infects innocent hearts and then he leaves behind horrible terror and despair without consolation.”

Chris Rosebrough, “You see Satan works the exact opposite. Satan weasels his way and he says, “Oh you are great. Go in the mirror and say I am strong. I am talented. I am all of this. Oh yes, you see Satan does this thing and so he worms his way in with these sweet speeches and flattering words. But here is the end result okay. To the person who falls for this false teaching and believes that this is really from God, they had their ego boosted, they have had their self-esteem puffed up, they believe that God is waiting to give them a huge dream and their life plays out and the end of it they haven’t heard of the forgiveness of sins or of repentance. Nor have they come to understand that God was born of the virgin Mary and suffered under Pontus Pilate in their place, for their sins and so at the end of the day Satan and all of his flattering words and puffing people up and making people feel great about themselves, at the end will leave them in utter despair. Because on the last day rather than hearing well done good and faithful servant.

They will instead hear, “Depart from Me. I never knew you.” So what this teaching leaves at the end is horrible terror and complete despair and worse than that the entire torments of hell. Because they were never confronted with their sins and brought to trust and faith in Jesus for the forgiveness of their sins, they were told that they are children of God already without the cross, without the shed blood of Jesus. Jesus makes it clear that, (John 8 v 44) “you are of your Father the devil.” If you are not in Christ, if you have not been brought to repentance and faith for the forgiveness of your sins, sorry you are not a child of God. You are a child of the devil and you are by nature an object of God’s wrath and still under God’s wrath. This is what scripture reveals.

This is why a true minister of Christ must preach sin and the forgiveness of sins. Must preach Law and gospel, sin and grace, heaven and hell, repentance and the forgiveness of sins, Joel Osteen doesn’t do that and neither does Oprah and the message that they give people ultimately will cause all of these people who are saying these fine words about themselves and exalting themselves and building themselves up and thinking, “I have just got to fulfil some big dream,” at the end of it they will be left with the ultimate terror and the ultimate dread and ultimate despair and none of this needs to be this way. Because if Joel Osteen were truly a Christian pastor he would be pointing them to their crucified and risen Saviour and the fact that He doesn’t proves over and again Joel Osteen is no Christian pastor. He is an apostate heretic who works for the devil.


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