Fighting for the Faith With Chris Rosebrough – Joyce Meyer’s Identity Theft


The following is a segment transcript taken from a Fighting For The Faith podcast mp3 that was broadcast on Friday October 5th 2012. If you want to listen to mp3 you just need to subscribe the Fighting For The Faith podcast in iTunes. Just skip to – 00:05:01  to listen to the first segment. This lasts up until 00:06:55. The second segment is a mini sermon review. To listen to this just skip to 00:40:36. The segment lasts until the time 01:11:12.

You can watch the video of this transcript on youtube http://youtu.be/Wi1bnxMrvXk

[First segment – Chris Rosebrough Introduces Joyce Meyer]

Chris Rosebrough, “I’ve got, I can’t remember if I have ever reviewed anything by Joyce Meyer on the programme. I should probably go back into our database and type into our programme archives, see if I have said if I have even mentioned her for real. But Joyce Meyer is just I have been getting a lot of requests lately to review things by her and I am not going to do a full blown sermon review today. But we are going to take a crack at listening to some of her teaching from a sermon that she did not too long ago entitled Identity Theft by Joyce Meyer. This was on her, aired nationally televised programme and boy I have got to tell you Joyce Meyer is one of the more dangerous false teachers out there. She is up there with like Joel Osteen, I would say Rick Warren, Brian McClaren.

She is really not good. This is a woman, her theology is really bad. But here is the thing. She is great, she is a fantastic public speaker and she speaks with passion and conviction and she sounds like she is giving you good old straight talk bible stuff. But her talk maybe straight but her bible teaching is crooked and so what we are going to take a first real crack at doing a Joyce Meyer update. In fact I have picked music already for our Joyce Meyer updates because I think we have going revisit her more often, because of the requests that I have been getting regarding her. But trust me when I tell you that listening to her programme, her theology is really narcissistic and clearly in the Word of Faith camp.

[Second segment]

Alright now it is time for our inaugural Joyce Meyer update and here is the music that I have picked for Joyce Meyer.

Wolf Mother – Joker and Thief

I said the joker is a wanted man,
He makes his way all across the land,
See him sifting through the sand,

So I’ll tell you all the story,
About the joker and the thief of the night,

Always laughing in the midst of power,
Always living in the final hour,
There is always sweet in the sour,

We are not goin’ home,

Can you see the joker flying over,
As she’s standing in the field of clover,
Watching out everyday?
I wonder what would happen if he took her away?

Alright that is Wolf Mother – Joker and Thief. That is the name of their song. Alright so to inaugurate our Joyce Meyer updates I think it is important that we do a little bit of background information on Joyce Meyer because this plays into whether or not anybody should be listening to her and so I am at the Joyce Meyer website. joycemeyer.org and they have a simple section called ‘FAQ’ or ‘about us’ and you can you know they answer questions about Joyce Meyer and so one of the questions that comes up – is Joyce Meyer an ordained minister? Here is what the Joyce Meyer website says.

Joyce was ordained over 25 years ago. She has a worldwide congregation through the Enjoying Everyday Life television and radio programs. Joyce Meyer speaks regularly at public conferences in the United States and around the world. She also preaches occasionally at the St. Louis Dream Center church, an inner-city outreach of Joyce Meyer Ministries.”

Well here is a problem. So Joyce Meyer puts herself forward as a pastrix, however she is a pastrix of her radio and television programme. But she claims that she is an ordained minister. Well that is a problem because the bible nowhere and I mean nowhere permits a woman to have authority over a man. (1 Timothy 2v12). None whatsoever, there is no such thing biblically as a female apostle. There is no such thing biblically as a female pastor. I call them pastrixes and the bible prohibits this flat out. In fact the qualification for a pastor is that “he must be the husband of but one wife.” (1 Timothy 3v2)

Now so here is the deal. Already there is a big problem. She is in flat out rebellion against the biblical qualifications for a pastor, an ordained minister. That should raise a red flag immediately which tells you something about her and that is this she does not truly believe the bible is the inerrant inspired infallible Word of God. She takes issue with the bible and engages in obfuscation in order to basically blunt shunt and eliminate clear teachings of scripture that don’t agree with her ideas, her theology. She stands in judgement over God’s Word. Make no mistake about that.

Now when you look at the history of things Joyce Meyer has said I find this one to be probably the most amazing in a bad way and also the most telling and revealing and this is a very important thing to note she has never repented of this statement and if you don’t believe that this is part of the beating heart of her personal theology, her personal brand of Christianity, Christianized religion then well you would be mistaken. This is truly at the beating of her theology and will come into play you know behind the scenes from what we are going to hear from this sound bite from her Identity Theft sermon that she preached this year. But here listen you have probably heard this before. Listen very carefully.

[plays sound bite]

Joyce Meyer, “I am not poor. I am not miserable and I am not a sinner. That is a lie from the pit of hell. That is what I were and if I still was then Jesus died in vain. I’m going to tell you something folks. I didn’t stop sinning until I finally got it through my thick head I wasn’t a sinner anymore. And the religious world thinks that’s heresy and they want to hang you for it. But the Bible says that I am righteous and I can’t be righteous and be a sinner at the same time.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Alright so Joyce Meyer. She says, “I am not poor. I am not miserable and I am not a sinner. The bible says I am righteous and I can’t be righteous and be a sinner at the same time.”

Now this ought to tell you something and it ought to alarm you. This tells you she is not properly trained in any kind of Christian theology whatsoever. She is a Word of Faith Prosperity heretic. Okay this is one of the false doctrines that runs rampant through Prosperity Word of Faith heretics okay. Now I would just quote against her. You know such things as like 1 John 1v8

1 John 1v8-10 (ESV – English Standard Version)

If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him (that is God) a liar, and his word is not in us.

Now let me give you another passage from Jesus Himself okay. From Jesus Himself and this is from Jesus teaching as far as how to pray and this can be found in The Gospel of Matthew. I will start at chapter 6v5 for context.

Matthew 6v5 (ESV – English Standard Version)

“And when you pray (this is from the sermon on the mount by the way), you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you. “And when you pray, do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do, for they think that they will be heard for their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. Pray then like this:

“Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name.
10 Your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread,
12 and forgive us our trespasses,
as we have forgiven those

who have trespassed against us.

Okay Jesus instructs how to pray giving us a daily prayer. Give us this our daily bread and yet in this daily prayer we are to pray for God to forgive us of our debts, our transgressions, our sins. So here Joyce Meyer as part and parcel of her theology, she denies that she is a sinner. Listen.

[plays sound bite]

Joyce Meyer, “I am not poor. I am not miserable and I am not a sinner. That is a lie from the pit of hell. That is what I were and if I still was then Jesus died in vain. I’m going to tell you something folks. I didn’t stop sinning until I finally got it through my thick head I wasn’t a sinner anymore. And the religious world thinks that’s heresy and they want to hang you for it. But the Bible says that I am righteous and I can’t be righteous and be a sinner at the same time.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Okay so I can’t be righteous and a sinner at the same time. Yeah yet the apostle Paul and my question for her would be are you greater than the apostle Paul? Do you know better than Jesus who instructed us to pray every single day? “Forgive us our trespasses.” Are you greater than the apostle Paul who is an eyewitness to the bodily resurrection of Jesus and who has written the big bulk of The New Testament? Because here is what the apostle Paul says in 1 Timothy 1. I will start at v15.

1 Timothy 1v15-16 (ESV – English Standard Version)

15 The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the (chief), the foremost. 16 But I received mercy for this reason, that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display his perfect patience as an example to those who were to believe in him for eternal life.

The apostle Paul didn’t say I were the chief of sinners. He said, “I am the chief of sinners.” Present tense, read Romans 7.

So here is what we know about Joyce Meyer she is a Word of Faith heretic. She is a pastrix contrary to the clear commands of the Word of God that woman are not to be ordained or hold the preaching office in the church and you notice that when she says, “the religious institution calls that heresy but I didn’t stop sinning until I….” Yeah right, she is firmly against the religious institution. This is a woman who is the lone ranger of heresy if you would. She is a woman standing against the false establishment of Christianity and she herself has apparently figured it all out. Well what do we know so far? She is in direct contradiction and violation of the clear teaching of the Word of God and with that as our foundation.

Let’s add onto this a very slick, very subtle, very narcissistic twisting of the gospel and its implications and a presentation that is apparently supposed to save us from the problem that we all face. Here is Joyce Meyer and part of her sermon entitled Identity Theft. That was preached and broadcast earlier this year.”

Joyce Meyer, “Father we thank you for the Word tonight. All the beautiful people that have taken Friday night to come and wait on you and let you touch them and I do pray God that you would touch them and not one person would leave here the way they came. Encourage, edify, deliver, heal, set free, and save those that are lost in Jesus name amen. Now you heard…..”

Chris Rosebrough, “That creates the impression that this is a Christian preacher. She is not.”

Joyce Meyer, “Now you heard a woman testify a little bit ago that although she grew up in church and would not have missed church. That her and her family diligently went to church that behind the scenes, behind closed doors at home she was just an absolute mess.”

Chris Rosebrough, “So despite the fact you went to church apparently the affects of her fallen sinful nature was running its course right? So apparently this is so the problem that she is setting up here is listen if you are in Christ, you shouldn’t be having problems like this.”

Joyce Meyer, “Part of it was because she really had lost her God given identity.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Really so the reason why, see because remember, “I am not poor, I am not miserable. I am not a sinner and I didn’t stop sinning until I realised that I am not a sinner.” Right so that is what is beating behind this theology. She is just not saying it out loud but that is the premise. If you are truly a Christian, if you are truly in Christ well then you have a new identity and well you don’t experience bad things behind closed doors at your house. That is just absolutely insane, that is not normal. You are a Christian. You shouldn’t be having problems like that. You are not a sinner anymore.”

Joyce Meyer, “I believe that many times what we see going in the world is something that is actually a manifestation of something that is going on in this spirit. Only we don’t see it in the spirit.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Notice the words, “I think.” No Christian pastor leads off a statement regarding God or doctrine or theology with the words “I think,” they always begin by saying, “it is written” or the Lord has spoken and said in His word. But not I think.”

Joyce Meyer, “Today identity theft is a huge thing. I saw a movie once about a girl whose identity was stolen and her life just became an absolute nightmare. This person who had stolen her identity racked up all these bills and they were trying to make pay debts that she didn’t owe. She was being accused of things that she did not do, very much like the enemy deals with people. He accuses us all the time. He tries to make us think that we constantly need to be paying for something, paying, although the bible tells us that Jesus has already paid.”

Chris Rosebrough, “There is a little gospel nugget. Okay but don’t think she is preaching the biblical gospel here because she is not.”

Joyce Meyer, “You need to know who you are and you need to know who you are in Christ. You need to know where to get your identity. This identity theft thing has become such a problem that now people are buying insurance against identity theft. But the good news is that Jesus is our insurance against identity theft.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Huh?”

Joyce Meyer, “I am talking about spiritually speaking. So I really want you to open your heart and receive this Word tonight because I believe that….”

Chris Rosebrough, “Yeah no, I will not unless it is from a clear solid in context exegesis of God’s Word. But already it is clear that you have no intention of doing that.”

Joyce Meyer, “So many people just don’t feel good about who they are.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Okay I am going to back that up because you need to hear that statement again. So apparently there is a big problem out there people just don’t feel good about who they are huh?”

Joyce Meyer, “I am talking about spiritually speaking. So I really want you to open your heart and receive this Word tonight because I believe that so many people just don’t feel good about who they are.”

Chris Rosebrough, “There it is again, “I believe that so many people just don’t feel good about who they are. No Christian preacher has ever called to say, “well I think or the problem is or I kind of sort of believe that the problem is this or whatever.” All Christian pastors are called to preach and proclaim God’s Word, not make assertions about what they think or feel.”

Joyce Meyer, “They feel the pressure from the world. They feel peer pressure to be what they think everybody wants them to be and sometimes we try to be so many people and we try to play so many different roles that we get confused about who we are. I believe we have an epidemic of insecurity in our society.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Hmm….“I believe we have an epidemic of insecurity in our society.” Oh that sounds terrible. Is that the problem that scripture says? That the world out there basically people are, an epidemic of insecurity, is that our problem? Or is the problem that scripture presents that humans born dead in trespasses in sins, don’t even realise just and how much trouble they are with God and are absolutely secure rather than insecure. But secure in their sinfulness.

Romans 3 v 9-20 (ESV – English Standard Version)

Paul writes, What then? Are we Jewsany better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all

That is everybody, everybody everywhere. You remember the movie Back To The Future 3? Where Marty McFly you know goes to the old west and the name that he picks for himself is Clint Eastwood. Well he goes into that bar and you know he has to face Biff’s ancestor and you know fight him and so they were trying to get him to go outside and they were calling him a coward and the one guy said, “everybody everywhere will say that Clint Eastwood is the biggest yeller belly in the west.” Right, you familiar, you remember that line?

Well here Paul says, “are we Jews any better off? Well not at all for we have already charged that at all…..

Romans 3 v 9 (ESV – English Standard Version)

9 Both Jews and Greeks, (That means all, everybody everywhere.)

are under sin, 10 as it is written:

“None is righteous, no, not one;
11no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
13 “Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
14  “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16  in their paths are ruin and misery,
17 and the way of peace they have not known.”
18“There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

You see that is the dire situation that scripture presents. But see Joyce Meyer here is basically going to set up a big problem. There is an epidemic of insecurity out there and the world is robbing people of their identity. No it is not, that is not the problem. The problem out there is that the world is full of people who are dead in trespasses in sins and are sinners and have transgressed God’s holy commands and laws and are in rebellion with Him and according to Jesus are still under the wrath of God unless they believe in Him, in Jesus for the forgiveness of their sins. But we continue.

Joyce Meyer, “And I think it causes so many problems in relationships because people are not functioning together on an open honest level. There is a lot of pretence and a lot of works of the flesh. People trying to be what they think that everybody else wants them to be.”

Chris Rosebrough, “So a work of the flesh, she is redefining very carefully right there, a work of the flesh is not sin – transgressing God’s holy Law. But a work of the flesh now in her way of thinking is trying to be somebody else other than who you are because the world is trying to get you to be somebody other than who you are. Subtle dangerous and absolutely false.”

Joyce Meyer, “And the truth is God is never going to help you, but be anybody but you.”

Chris Rosebrough, “What kind of statement is that?”

Joyce Meyer, “Did you hear you me?”

Chris Rosebrough, “Yeah I heard you and it makes no biblical sense whatsoever what you just said.”

Joyce Meyer, “God is never going to help you, be anybody other than you and He doesn’t want you to be a people pleaser, not that we don’t want to please people. But there is a difference in a normal desire to please people and becoming a people pleaser in that you end up letting them manipulate you and control you because you are so intent on them keeping happy that in the process you are making yourself unhappy and very often making God unhappy.”

Chris Rosebrough, “So you make God unhappy when you try to please people by becoming somebody who you ain’t. You had your identity stolen from you apparently. This is not a biblical teaching at all.”

Joyce Meyer, “You can’t really say no to people when you need to say no if you don’t know who you are in Christ. So many people go to church and they try to follow all the rules and regulations. But the truth is they just don’t like who they are.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Oh yeah so that is the problem they just don’t like who they are. So here who comes the obligatory Joyce Meyer swipe at solid bible teaching churches.”

Joyce Meyer, “They feel guilty. They feel condemned. They live under shame and blame and reproach that they picked up somewhere along the way in the world.”

Chris Rosebrough, “So the world is the one who made them feel like uh they are guilty.”

Joyce Meyer, “And I can tell you when you go to church and you are handed ten more rules to follow and three new doctrines. It is not going to deliver you from that mess. What you have to know is Christ and the power of His resurrection and you have to know who are in Him. You have to learn….”

Chris Rosebrough, “Now that is part of her stick when you listen to Joyce Meyer sermons and listen to hours of her programme, which unfortunately I have just begun doing. This is all part of her stick. She alone understands what is really going on. Those people in those established churches, those pastors are rules. They don’t understand really the power of God or anything but she does. They try to help people by giving them three new rules, and two more doctrines and stuff like that. What a bunch of morons. That is kind of how she treats them. But she alone has figured out the secret. She has got the straight talk that is going to put you on the inside track so you can overcome these problems and you don’t need to go to those morons and those established churches where they you know give you doctrines and stuff like that. That is part of her stick.”

Joyce Meyer, “You have to learn to identify with who you are in Him. (2 Corinthians 5), if any man be in Christ….”

Chris Rosebrough, “Now here comes a verse out of context.”

Joyce Meyer, “He is a new creation, a new creature altogether with a brand new nature. Deep on the inside of Him.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Now this is true.”

Joyce Meyer, “All things pass away, all things become brand new. In Joshua 5.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Now we are going to The Old Testament.”

Joyce Meyer, “When Joshua was going to go in…..”

Chris Rosebrough, “So the technique is this you rip verses out of context and you stick them next to each as if they are commentaries on each other, when they are not talking about the same thing. Rip a verse here, rip a verse there, and then you weave it into a tapestry and she is in control of the narrative not the biblical text.”

Joyce Meyer, “When Joshua was going to go in lead the people in, take the tower of Jericho. First God told them, “today the reproach of Egypt is rolled off of you. (Joshua 5v9). You cannot possess the land until reproach is rolled off of you.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Now this is her own unique interpretation of this passage and watch how she then applies it.”

Joyce Meyer, “Reproach is shame, blame and a feeling of being a general failure.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Okay so apparently God has taken away from the children of Israel the feeling of failure that was foisted upon them by those evil Egyptians. You see that was the problem. You see the real enslaving apparently by the people of Egypt against the people of Israel was that they made them the children of Israel, feel like a bunch of miserable failures. But God in His mercy there in Joshua removed that reproach so that and rolled it off of them so now they no longer need to feel like a failure. Talk about a complete narcissistic twisting of God’s Word. When you read it in context that is not what this is about nor is this what Christ came to save you from. Christ didn’t come to save you from a feeling of failure. In fact it is absolutely imperative that you and I come to grips with the fact that we have utterly failed to keep God’s Law. That we are called to humble ourselves before God and confess our sins and confess that we have trespassed against God, trespassed against our neighbour. Committed sins against them and over and again call upon God for mercy and forgiveness. Humbly repentantly and contritely confessing that we have failed to keep His Law. That is an important part. Remember 1 John 1.

1 John 1v8-10 (ESV – English Standard Version)

If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

You see she does not admit that she is a sinner.

1 John 1v8-10 (ESV – English Standard Version)

If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Is the truth in Joyce Meyer? Not at all, she is speaking lies, which means the origin her doctrine is the devil. Because the devil is the father of lies. He is a liar okay. She is not speaking the truth. She is lying and she is doing it very craftily, very confidently, very audaciously if you would. But all of these things that she is speaking are flat out lies.

Joyce Meyer, “When you go through the world a few years, almost everybody has that reproach. But Jesus died…..”

Chris Rosebrough, “Yeah you go through the world a few years and now you just feel like a failure.”

Joyce Meyer, “Jesus died to roll that thing off of you.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Okay I am going to back it up so you can hear it in context. She is going to say why Jesus died listen.”

Joyce Meyer, “Reproach is shame, blame and a feeling of being a general failure. When you go through the world a few years, almost everybody has that reproach. But Jesus died to roll that thing off of you. So you could live like a new creature. We don’t want to just sing songs about it. We want to live it. We want to enjoy it. We want it to be a reality in our lives. Can anybody say amen?”

Chris Rosebrough, “I cannot say amen to what you are saying. What you are saying is absolutely not what the scripture teaches. Jesus came to roll back that feeling of failure and reproach that the world has put upon you. No the problem is that you have transgressed God’s holy Law.”

Joyce Meyer, “Is there anybody here who needs to feel better about who you are amen. Anybody that is tired of feeling guilty and condemned and like you have got to compare yourself with somebody else and compete with somebody else all the time.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Sick and tired of feeling guilty and condemned.”

Joyce Meyer, “I am not poor. I am not miserable and I am not a sinner. That is a lie from the pit of hell. That is what I were and if I still was then Jesus died in vain. I’m going to tell you something folks. I didn’t stop sinning until I finally got it through my thick head I wasn’t a sinner anymore. And the religious world thinks that’s heresy and they want to hang you for it. But the Bible says that I am righteous and I can’t be righteous and be a sinner at the same time.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Yeah that is what is beating behind this particular sermon.”

Joyce Meyer, “Well I can tell you that mega problems with that and I am free from it.”

Chris Rosebrough, “That is right I had mega problems feeling like a failure.”

Joyce Meyer, “There is nothing the devil despises more than a person who knows who they are in Christ. He hates a person who is confident. The devil is afraid of a person who is confident.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Oh give me a break.”

Joyce Meyer, “And you can be confident in Christ Jesus.”

Chris Rosebrough, “Yes we can be confident in Christ Jesus, confident that we are reconciled to God through Christ’s shed blood on the cross, confident that God is merciful towards us and that Christ has paid the wrath of God in our place. Taken upon Himself, that he was pierced for our transgressions. Bruised for our iniquities. Notice the emphasis that I am giving here is on what Christ has done to forgive us because we have sinned. She is basically preaching a gospel where God has come to free us, set us free from feeling like failures. Yet well failure and that feeling of failure before God is a primary and integral part of the gospel message itself. Because we are called to repent and be forgiven by the shed blood of Christ. That is not the gospel she preaches. She preaches a gospel that sets us free from feeling like failures and having our identity stolen by the world.

Well that is our first Joyce Meyer update. We will be having more in the future. But that is just kind of to grease the skid so to speak and introduce you to a false teacher who we are going to have to pay closer attention to in episodes to come.

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