Wretched Radio With Todd Friel – TD Jakes explains the Loaves and Fishes in a way Oprah loves


[The following is a segment transcript of a Wretched Radio Show podcast. The show was originally broadcast on Friday 20th April 2012. You can listen to the mp3 on The Wretched Radio website. The name of the file is WR2012-0420-Hr2

You can watch this video on youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Atj6tXzUONs&feature=youtu.be

Todd Friel, “Otto.”

Oprah Winfrey, “I have heard the story of the five loaves.”

TD Jakes, “Yeah.”

Oprah Winfrey, “And the fishes. I had never heard it dissected and it was like you were an architect who laid out the floor plan and then you went in and you built it brick by brick and layered it so that we could have another way of seeing through this house.”

Todd Friel, “Otto…this is Wretched Radio. That of course is Oprah Winfrey she is travelling around the country interviewing famous people. This time she sat down with Elephant approved TD Jakes, appreciating his preaching specifically on the story of The Loaves and Fishes.”

TD Jakes, “The Bible comes to life in my hands. You know the story as well as I do that there is a little boy there with two fishes and five loaves of bread then the miracle begins to occur and he took it and he blessed it. He is blessing something that is not enough.”

Oprah Winfrey, “Hello….hello?”

Todd Friel, “Hello that is right. I don’t know what that means.”

TD Jakes, “Until you can be thankful for something that is not enough then what you have cannot be multiplied….”

Todd Friel, “Oh boy.”

TD Jakes, “….into what is more than enough. We are certain that he had two fish and five loaves of bread when he blessed it as he broke it. That is where we lose count.”

Todd Friel, “I have no idea what that means.”

TD Jakes, “You understand then that the blessing is in the breaking.”

Todd Friel, “What?”

Oprah Winfrey, “Yeah.”

TD Jakes, “That, that refuses to be broken refuses to be blessed.”

Todd Friel, “Central interpretive motif jumps to mind. Do you recall what a central interpretive motif is? It is the filter that you put the Bible through. When you read a story you have got the big ahhh. I think the attribute of God that best describes Him that encompasses Him is this. The purpose of the Bible is this. The story that he is telling when he is writes scripture is this. Your central interpretative motif. Now it can be described in a lot of different ways. You can take an attribute of God. You can talk about the purposes of God. What is the big ahhh to the Bible? You and I would talk in terms of well it is about holiness. A big attribute of God is holiness so as I read through stories I am thinking holiness because God is motherly. As I read the Bible my central interpretive motif could be God’s love. That God so loved the world He gave His only begotten Son. So as I read these stories I am thinking okay this is about God’s love. Even the wrathful stuff. It could be about Jesus. It could be your central interpretive motif. The gospel is a central, the cross – pick something. Because it will, it really will guide your understanding of stories. I can’t help but think that TD Jakes just has a central interpretive motif that is so far off my radar screen. I don’t even know what to do with it. That the story somehow it seems to me, this is the order of interpretation for TD Jakes, I am speculating. He considers his audience. Number one – “who are the people that I am preaching to? What is the thing that they came here to hear?” And I think his central interpretative motif is, “how I can I use the Bible to tell them stories that somehow make them feel empowered to overcome their present circumstance?” Somebody sent me a video to idea@wretchedradio.com and I can’t remember the lady’s name. It is kind of famous. I kind of recognized it and she was a singer.

Now a black woman for the, a congregation that was predominantly black and she was singing and I listened to about five minutes of it, before I either wanted to shout or cry. I couldn’t decide which. Without mocking it, it was basically it was, “I am going to take it back. The devil has taken it from me and I am going to take it back.” Now it wasn’t the devils you know that one song you know, “I am going to take back what he stole from me. But that was kind of the theme of it. And went to the enemy’s camp, “I went to the enemy’s camp. Take back what he had took,” or something like that. “And I am going to take it back,” and this song was like that squared, “and I am going to stand and I have got the power and I am going to overcome and this thing that has taken your joy. You are going to take it back. And that thing that has knocked you down, you are going to kick it around. And that thing which has made you blue. You are going to give it your left shoe.”

And on and on this thing went and I went okay now and the crowd is getting more and more whipped up. More enthused and I thought to myself, “okay wait a second. First of all is there any truth in what she is singing? And second of all does it really help me?” It was all centered around the individual. Somehow I don’t know how. Somehow overcoming problems, difficulties, hurts, heartaches without an ounce of truth. Without an ounce of promise, without an ounce of any sort of intervention from God – exceedingly me-centred and then okay if you put theology aside you could get whipped up into that. Just like you would when you go to a Tony Robins conference. Go to a Zig Ziggler conference. That is all this is. It is just sort of Christianized. There was, it was man-centred, me-powered as empty as a cloud that does not deliver any rain. It promises but there simply is nothing there which is exactly the sign of a false teacher.

Oprah Winfrey, “I was reminded of my own lessons today when you were saying that there was no, there really was no storm. There is no storm and every storm comes into our life.”

TD Jakes, “To teach us.”

Oprah Winfrey, “As a teaching opportunity.”

TD Jakes, “In the storm God looks like a ghost.”

Oprah Winfrey, “It is really good.”

TD Jakes, “They fear for their lives and said, “that is a ghost coming.” But it was God. Sometimes the thing that you are apprehensive about coming to get you is God coming in an another form. He doesn’t always look like you think He ought to look.”

Todd Friel, “Now it is interesting you can hear in the background Oprah Winfrey who is as Eastern, it is such a mingling. She is the cracker barrel of Christianity. She has got Deepak Chopra. She has got Gary Zukav. She has got Rhonda Byrnes. All mixed up in her pot. Yes that is brilliant. If Oprah Winfrey amen’s your sermon you are not doing something right.”

Oprah Winfrey, “Do you think that being gay is a sin?”

TD Jakes, “I think that sex between two people of the same sex is condemned in the scriptures and as long as it is condemned in the scriptures. I don’t get to say what I think. I get to say what the Bible says. You know I am not particularly political. I am not particularly denominational. I am not worried about any of that. I am not anti-gay, I am not anti anything. I am just. I don’t even want to be known by what I am against. I want to be known by what I am for.”

Todd Friel, “That is pretty sad because there are certain times that we have to stand against things.”

TD Jakes, “I am for people bettering themselves. No matter who they are….”

Todd Friel, “That is funny.”

TD Jakes, “And where they are. Doing all they can do to be all that they can be.”

Todd Friel, “That is a different central motif or let’s call it this a central interpretive view of scripture. It’s all about people. Not the Bible I read. The Bible I read says it is all about Jesus. It seems to me that what TD Jakes is very good at doing is trying to find a way not biblically but using the Bible to just give people a little pump, a little gas to get them to the next offering plate and to the next service.”

TD Jakes, “One of the great lessons I think that we have today is to live in a country that allows us to have various religious notions. I am so thankful that I don’t have congress deciding what I am going to believe. Having said that and with that tolerance and celebrating that tolerance I believe that we all take different paths. Some people find God at church, some people find at the house. Some people find God in their bedrooms. Some people find God in prison. There may be many different paths to God. But at the end of the day there is one God and there is one LORD. I believe that the Christian, that Christ is that door.”

Todd Friel, “Alright okay. Not quite as articulate as you and I would like it to be. I understood. You don’t find Jesus just in church. That is silly. But at least he said that Jesus is the door. Now I wish that he had gone a little bit further. That he didn’t say, “I believe that Christianity is, it doesn’t matter what I believe. Definitively to state all other religions are wrong. Only Jesus is right. Oprah didn’t seem to miss that.”

Oprah Winfrey, “Are all other religions leading to that path or is only Christianity leading to that path?”

Todd Friel, “This should be good. Now this, that is a good question Oprah well done. This should not be hard.”

TD Jakes, “Well I think you can get in Christianity and miss that path if you are not careful.”

Oprah Winfrey, “Right.”

Todd Friel, “Now that is not rightly stated either. If you miss that path you are not in Christianity. Now I think, let’s give him the benefit of the doubt you call yourself a Christian but you are not.”

TD Jakes, “And I think that many people start in other religions and at some point they, my prayer and my hope is that they would cross over and I mean cross over and seek Christ as Lord.”

Todd Friel, “Wrong nah. Right, that doesn’t help anybody. It really doesn’t. Oh I don’t want to turn them off. Well what if it turns them around? What about that argument? Well I don’t want to be too severe. It might scare them away. Well what if being severe actually startles them into going, “wait I must deal with this Jesus. If He is the way, the truth, the life. Then me following the path of Oprah which is why she was able to proclaim, “oh he is brilliant yeah,” because she thought he was parroting simply what she has been teaching for years. It could startle somebody into understanding they need to absolutely determine, “am I following the true God or the false?” It is funny his answer well considered, a theological tap dance. Now I am sorry to be skeptical. But do you think this is the first time that he has practiced his answer to try to trick people? I am sorry this man has been doing it for a long time. He did it with the Trinity issue. He has been doing it with the Word of Faith issue. He does a little chin boogie when it comes to the exclusivity of Jesus. He knows well that was enough of an answer for the Evangelicals to go, “oh yeah,” but not so much that it might offend somebody who is not.”

TD Jakes, “I describe him this way as being the God of the universe. The CEO of creation.”

Todd Friel, “This answering the question of how do you describe him? Let’s hope it gets better.”

TD Jakes, “The master, the progenitor, the originator of all life.”

Todd Friel, “How’s about Jesus?”

TD Jakes, “He is the beginning of all things.”

Todd Friel, “Please, oh please tell me he says Jesus.”

TD Jakes, “He is the end of all things.”

Todd Friel, “Alpha and Omega. There is a perfect segway to talk about Jesus.”

TD Jakes, “And by Him all things consist.”

Todd Friel, “Now again nothing wrong with that. I don’t like the idea of God being a CEO, it is rather trite but nothing wrong with that. Clear.”

TD Jakes, “How He reveals Himself to….”

Todd Friel, “Otto…if he uses the word manifestations I am going to scream.”

TD Jakes, “He reveals Himself in as unique as our own mentality. So…”

Todd Friel, “What? Okay, again He reveals Himself in a unique way to our own mentality. I can make that work as an Evangelical. I can force that into a square hole. But it is not any….”

TD Jakes, “When you grapple with this notion of many paths to God. There has to be many paths to God because we are many people

Oprah Winfrey, “Right.”

TD Jakes, “And in the process He reveals Himself in many ways.”

Todd Friel, “He reveals Himself in many ways? Is that right? Now we are getting a whole lot clearer and it is smelling a lot more like heresy to me.”

Oprah Winfrey, “So at your level and not everybody is at the same level.”

TD Jakes, “Not everybody is at the same level.”

Todd Friel, “Okay now is it true that there is a gift of faith and that there is some people who have more knowledge? Yes if you are a universalist would you be able to go yes that is right TD? I am afraid you would.”

Oprah Winfrey, “And everybody is the same.”

TD Jakes, “That is absolutely right. That cross polarization that we talked about. That we are strengthened through fellowship, whether that fellowship is in your living room or whether that fellowship is in a traditional church, let’s not totally ignore the benefit of fellowship amongst believers who strengthen us in the faith.”

Oprah Winfrey, “Because where two are three are gathered in my name.”

TD Jakes, “There I am in the midst.”

Todd Friel, “Oh boy hold on a second. Oprah Winfrey who is as Eastern as they get and yet able to toss on a Bible verse, congratulations to both of you.”

We Built This City – We’re not Gonna Take it – Rock of Ages

“We are not going to take it.

No we ain’t going to take it.

We are not going to take it anymore.”

Todd Friel, “Now if you listen to that I think it is fair to say, if you listen let’s say that you are having dinner with I don’t know an elephant and the elephant would say, “well tell me what was wrong about that.” Really the answer would have to be, “well nothing per se but it is sort of…okay.” This is sort of like the answer that deceiving spouse gives, “hey where were you?” “oh I was at the store,” and he was also shacking up with his mistress. “Yeah I was out doing some stuff that was good for me so that the family could be stronger because you know happy dad, happy lads. So that is what I was doing and you go, “okay.” And yet you didn’t.

Hey I would love it if TD Jakes was orthodox. He is a leader of many people. But right now with answers like that, that are so unclear, so lacking in truth, so lacking in definition – all he is leading right now are people astray and if anybody does get saved and on the right path it is despite him. Bummer. This is Wretched Radio.

[Commercial Break]

Todd Friel, “Hold on still kind of toddle off I feel like I have been slimed. This is Wretched Radio. That was so slippery. Do all paths lead to God? The answer basically would have appeased everybody and anybody. That was brilliant. Really entirely wrong, but brilliant if you can satisfy Oprah and the evangelical community. I am telling you, you need to go work in the circus because you are walking a tight rope that is thinner than anything the lenders will ever have crossed. This is Wretched Radio. Are there multiple paths to God? No, there is one way, Jesus Christ – Him only. Furthermore if you do not have the Holy Spirit you do not have Him and then you do not have the Father. It is the only way to be saved and to muddy it up with, “well you can find that path in church, or in your home, or in your bedroom, or at work, or driving in your car.” Yeah you know trickster that is….let’s come on we are supposed to be rightly dividing, rightly proclaiming not just making every ear tickled. Hmmm….funny description that.

Another question that accompanies Christendom is what about those people who have never heard? What happens to those people. It is a, look it is not an easy one because as a Christian we don’t like the truth being watered down about the exclusivity of Jesus. But at the same time honestly the thought of millions of people going to hell, millions maybe billions of people going to hell, that is horrifying. I mean that is we hate that idea. So we don’t want to answer this callously. Well of course they go to hell. What next, what is the other thing? Manuscript? We want to be demonstrating that we have a heart that has been changed and that absolutely aches that people don’t know the good. Besides they are just living in such darkness aren’t they? I mean it is just so….

 

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