Can a believer lose his salvation? Can Jesus lose a Christian with Matt Slick
Can a believer lose his salvation? Can Jesus lose a Christian? With Matt Slick
Christian Apologetics Research Ministry Faith and Reason Radio
Matt Slick, “Let’s get to Dimond. I don’t know where Dimond is from. Where are you from? Hello?”
Matt Slick, “Minnesota okay. Welcome to the show. How do you pronounce your name?”
Simon, “Oh Simon S.I.M.O.N”
Matt Slick, “Simon okay alright. We have got some hearing challenged people other side of the glass I am looking at and they are laughing now. Hey what’s up?”
Simon, “Alright, well I have been listening to you for a couple of months now and I grew up in a Assemblies of God church and obviously after hearing you for the last couple of months I know that you don’t believe that we can lose our salvation.
Matt Slick, “Right.”
Simon, “I don’t know all the verses but somewhere in the New Testament they use if they were of us they wouldn’t have fallen away or something.”
Matt Slick, “Yeah 1 John 2:19, “They went out from us because they were never of us. If they had been of us they would have remained.”
Simon, “Yeah and obviously I had never heard of that before. I don’t know what to say to that.”
Matt Slick, “Of course not because your church and the churches that you are going to and they teach that you can lose your salvation are not going to go through verses generally speaking that would contradict what they would say.”
Simon, “Yeah so I have one question then about 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 because they say we can fall into those sins and then you are not saved anymore or something like that.”
Matt Slick, “Okay let’s work with that.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (NKJV – New King James Version)
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, nor extortioners shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Okay and it says such were some of you.
Matt Slick, “So to look at it we have got a Christian. Now just think logically here okay with scripture. Alright.
Matt Slick, “and Jesus has bore all their sin on the cross right.”
Matt Slick, “and did he pay for the sins?”
Matt Slick, “Okay so they are taken care of, they are removed right.”
Matt Slick, “Are all of them removed.”
Matt Slick, “Even the ones that I am going to do in the future.”
Matt Slick, “Okay, so what do we do with a Christian then who lies, say a husband lies to his wife. What do we do? Do we say he is not a Christian because he lied.”
Simon, “I wouldn’t think so.”
Matt Slick, “Okay, I would agree. What if he steals something from work? Would we say he is a Christian?”
Simon, “Probably not.”
Matt Slick, “You are going to doubt it right. Now he is going out committing adultery, would you say he is a Christian?”
Simon, “No I don’t know that is why I am calling.”
Matt Slick, “I am going to let you think. Because it is not just a simple black and white thing. You see if Jesus has actually paid for all of our sins then are the sins of lying, stealing, and adultery paid for?”
Matt Slick, “Do you see what I am saying?”
Matt Slick, “The sins that God has actually bore on the person of Jesus Christ on the cross are either paid for or they are not all paid for. All are either paid for or all are not paid for. There are no other options. He either paid for them all or he did not pay for them all. Now let’s work with this idea that he didn’t pay for them all. So let’s say that there is this guy from the Assemblies of God position. He is a Christian, he is regenerate. He goes out and he commits adultery a few times he loses his salvation. Right?
Matt Slick, “So those sins are not paid for then. Is that right?”
Matt Slick, “And not only that but all of his sins I guess would come back upon him then wouldn’t they?”
Simon, “I guess so.”
Matt Slick, “Because he would be guilty of everything and he wasn’t saved. He is either saved or he is not saved.”
Matt Slick, “So we have an issue we have got to think through here. What is going on for example in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10? Well what is going on is it says the unrighteous shall not inherit thekingdom ofGod. Now let me talk about that for just a second with you. The unrighteous, now let me ask you are you a Christian?”
Matt Slick, “Okay, are you righteous?”
Matt Slick, “How so?”
Simon, “Because I don’t do those ten things or whatever.”
Matt Slick, “Oh wait a second so you are righteous by not doing the bad stuff?”
Simon, “I see.”
Matt Slick, “Or are you righteous based upon the work of Christ what he has done in his life, how it is reckoned to your account, how his righteousness became yours. Philippians 3:9 we have a righteousness that is not our own. The imputation of the righteousness of Christ to the believer. That means what Christ did his perfectly keeping of all the law when we become Christians is imputed to us, is reckoned to our account. This is done by faith. So the righteousness of Christ is taken and put upon you and it is seen by the Father and when the Father sees you because he sees you in Christ, he sees you as righteous. Righteousness has to do with the law. Jesus never sinned 1 Peter 2:22 and he did everything perfectly. So we have a righteousness that is not our own. Are you with me so far?”
Simon, “Well, yeah.”
Matt Slick, “Now I am going to read you this verse Philippians 3:9 I want you to hear it. It is talking about Jesus Christ
Philippians 3:9 (NKJV – New King James Version)
9 and they be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own, derived from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ.”
Okay, so on the basis of faith alright.
Matt Slick, “So when someone believes the righteousness of Christ is reckoned to their account. But also what has happened is that their sin was reckoned to Christ’s account. He became sin on the cross. He became sin on our behalf 2 Corinthians 5:21 and he bore our sin in his body on the cross 1 Peter 2:24. They died with him. Did he die for all of a person’s sins or not all of a person’s sins?”
Simon, “All of them.”
Matt Slick, “So how is it possible then that anybody could lose their salvation if Jesus has actually paid for all of their sins and they have received Christ and his righteousness is given to them? And then what they do is they continue in sin. Now let me ask you. Do you sin?”
Simon, “Of course.”
Matt Slick, “Yeah me too, now we struggle against our sin right. Now are you married by any chance?”
Matt Slick, “Okay, have you ever looked at a woman with lust?”
Simon, “Too many times.”
Matt Slick, “Fornicator, now you are a fornicator right. Have you ever coveted someone else’s car or whatever? Ever what wondered what somebody else has because they are really awesome and great? Have you ever done that?” Simon, “Sure.”
Matt Slick, “You are an idolater. Hey have you ever stolen anything from anybody since you have been a Christian?”
Simon, “Oh yeah.”
Matt Slick, “Now you are a thief I guess you are going to hell aren’t you?”
Simon, “Right I see.”
Matt Slick, “Are you made right before God by what you do or don’t do? Or are you made right before God by what Christ has done?”
Simon, “The second one or else none of us would make it.”
Matt Slick, “None of us ever would. What they are imposing upon you and the false teaching of you can lose your salvation is a works righteousness based system. Now does this mean that we can go sin all we want if we are Christians? The answer is yeah absolutely. Next question how much are you going to want to sin if you are really a Christian? The answer is you are not going to want to. You war with the sin, “the things I want to do I don’t do, and the things I don’t want to do I do,” said Paul. He was warring with his sin as I war with mine on a daily basis. The closer I get to the LORD the more I realise how much of a sinner I really am. I haven’t committed adultery, I try to be honest, you know I am not a fornicator. You know that doesn’t, that is not what keeps me saved. It is the work of Christ that keeps me saved. What Paul is talking about there he says, “or do you not know that the unrighteous?” That means the unsaved. The righteous are the ones who have been saved by the blood of Christ. They have had the imputed righteousness of Christ given to them. These unrighteous are not going to inherit the kingdom of God. Don’t be deceived neither fornicators, idolaters, etc, etc are going to enter the kingdom of heaven and such were some of you but you were washed, but you were sanctified.
You see 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 is not about Christians it is about unbelievers.”
Matt Slick, “Why would that church that you are going to apply this verse to Christians? I will tell you why because they don’t understand what the scriptures teach soteriologically about the doctrine of salvation and they have enough to be saved sure. But the fact is that God is the one who calls us. Now think about this from all eternity God has called us and predestined us. Are you aware of that?”
Simon, “Yeah I have heard.”
Matt Slick, “Let me read you some scripture.
Ephesians 1:3-5 (NKJV – New King James Version)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him in love, 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ.”
So God chose us and he predestined us. Chose us to be in Christ and predestined us to be adopted as sons in Jesus Christ. So you hear me quote these things. I will quote this stuff to people, I will say these things to people and they won’t like what I say. But I am reading scripture to them half of the time. Half of the time I kind of paraphrase a verse to see if they are going to react to it. But that is what it says so, now let me ask you do you believe that God chooses us and predestines us for salvation?
Simon, “Well I haven’t totally looked at it but based on what I have heard from you the past couple of months it is hard to say he doesn’t.”
Matt Slick, “Let me read you another verse. Let me ask you a question and then I will read you the verse to give you the answer. Do you believe God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation?”
Matt Slick, “Well good because I just read 2 Thessalonians 2:13
2 Thessalonians 2:13 13 But we should always give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
Matt Slick, “So God chose you right.”
Matt Slick, “That is what he does. That is what the Bible says. Now you had to believe it because that is what it says. Isn’t that right?”
Matt Slick, “So what I am teaching you. I don’t want you to believe me, I want you to believe what the Word says. That if God chooses us from the foundation of the world and he is choosing us for salvation. Do you think maybe he knows every sin that the ones he is choosing are ever going to commit? Do you think when he redeems us that all of those sins were put on the cross?”
Matt Slick, “Okay, now do you think also since sin is a legal problem we need a legal solution? Sin is breaking the law of God – 1 John 3:4. Well if that is the case we need a legal solution. Jesus is our propitiation as a sacrifice that turns away wrath, righteous judgement. Now Jesus said on the cross in John 19:30 he said, “It is finished.” That word tetelestai has been found at the bottom of legal documents in ancient papyri signifying legal debt that had been paid. Now this is what Colossians 2:14 says Jesus having cancelled out the certificate of death consisting of decrees against us. Now did Jesus cancel out the certificate of debt against us having nailed to the cross? As it says in Colossians 2:14, has he done that?
Matt Slick, “Has he made a legal payment for us?
Matt Slick, “And God predestined us for eternity for salvation? Do you think he is going to make a mistake, and have someone be saved – that he is going to lose and their sins become unpaid for?”
Simon, “No, that makes sense.”
Matt Slick, “It is ridiculous when you start thinking, applying logic and you start thinking as the scriptures actually teach us. Because the idea that we can lose our salvation is based upon man’s ability to keep himself saved. Now Simon I am going to tell you. I am going to make a bold risky statement about you okay and you can tell me if I am right or wrong. I am going to say that you are just not good enough to keep yourself saved. Would you agree with that or not?”
Simon, “Yeah I would.”
Matt Slick, “Okay, well that same thing applies to me. There is no possible way I am good enough or can be good enough by keeping the commandments of any sort to keep myself right with an infinitely, perfect, holy being who is God. I have to rely completely on Jesus and if you are relying completely on Jesus you don’t keep your salvation by being good otherwise you are not relying completely on Christ. You are relying on Christ and your own efforts and that is false. That is what the Mormons teach, that is what the Jehovah Witnesses teach, that is what the Roman Catholics teach and Jesus condemns it.
Matthew 7:22-23 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, in Your name cast out demons, in your name perform many good works?’ 23 And he will say, ‘Get away from me I never knew you; you who practice lawlessness!’
What they were appealing to was their faith in your name did we do this? And look at what we did and he condemns them.
Matt Slick, “That is a very serious thing isn’t it?
Matt Slick, “Now I will read you one more thing. Here is what Paul says and
Romans 4:3-5 “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.” 4 But to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned righteous.
It is by faith not by faith and keeping any commandments. It is not by faith and baptism, it is not by faith and I don’t go see those r rated movies, it is not faith and I read my Bible five times a week, it is not faith and I don’t look at that woman and lust. We are not supposed to do that, it is a sin to do that but doing that doesn’t forfeit your salvation anymore than turning your eyes from that woman gets you right with God so that you are in a position of being saved. You see?
Simon, “Right, okay.”
Matt Slick, “Alright now I would recommend you find a good church that teaches biblical theology.
Simon, “and that was my other question because I just moved here inMinnesota. I have been looking for a church you know. What kind of church would you recommend?”
Matt Slick, “Where is here? Where are you? You’re inMinnesota?”
Matt Slick, “Okay, I would find a Baptist church basically any Baptist churches is going to be good, alright?”
Matt Slick, “Now you can find a Calvary Chapel they don’t teach what I just taught but you will be safe there. Basically you go there for a year you learn the basics, you go onto other stuff if that is what you want. Evangelical free is a good safe church. If you can find a church that is what is in the Presbyterian church inAmerica. The P.C.A. that is a good denomination, you will find it is a good balance of things, good people in that group. A lot of Presbyterian churches and denominations are bad but that one is okay. If you have a question about a particular church call me up on the show I will look at the website if they have got one. I will tell you right away what is going on, I will look at their statement of faith. That is what I do very quickly and I look through links too and just see look through the links. If they are linking to stuff like Joel Osteen, and Kenneth Copeland and stuff like that, I will go ah stay away. Because I will tell you stay biblical to the Word of God and let me tell you something churches can certainly grow and do grow because the Holy Spirit is blessing them, but they can also grow because people are coming to hear what they want to hear and it is difficult for someone who is not trained theologically, who knows the issues and doesn’t really seriously study the Word. It is difficult for them to really understand what the difference is. So that is kind of what I do. Okay.”
Matt Slick, “Does that help?”
Simon, “Yeah that did.”
Matt Slick, “Alright buddy God bless.”
Simon, “Bye, thank you.”
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